Perspective and Reality

[Lacewing]

Can you imagine -- even if only slightly or briefly -- experiencing and seeing from another perspective that might differ significantly from your current reality and from who/what you think you are? Can you imagine having other qualities, limitations, fears, characteristics? Can you imagine being a terrorist, and seeing the world from that state of mind? Can you imagine being sure of a god, or thinking such ideas are fanciful and made-up by humans? Can you imagine being hyper-driven by your own thoughts or ego, or not taking them so seriously?

Are you able to step out of who you think you are, and imagine being altogether different -- or do you imagine yourself as being the only way you can be? Is what you currently perceive, all there is?

I can imagine being and experiencing all of these things, and that brings up questions for me about who/what we think we are (and are capable of), and how we’ve chosen and created as we have amidst all possibilities in whatever scenario we’re born into. If we’re simply choosing and creating as we go -- if nothing and no one must be a certain way -- if any of us could be almost anything -- how and why do reasonable, thinking people become so locked-in on their focused view to such a degree that they can’t see/understand/appreciate anything beyond that limited perspective?

[Harbal]

Can you imagine -- even if only slightly or briefly -- experiencing and seeing from another perspective that might differ significantly from your current reality and from who/what you think you are?

Yes I can but it's not always something I would dare to admit to, sometimes "society" makes it quite clear that doing that is not acceptable. We aren't supposed to see things from the point of view of Adolf Hitler or a terrorist or a paedophile, our attempts to try and work out what makes these people tick would be misunderstood as being sympathetic to them. It seems to me that we need to have insight in order to work out what to do about the problem people among us, or even to be able to tolerate those who are different from us.

[surreptitious57]

Imagination does not impact upon physical reality where as the implementation of an idea would by costing time and money. And also there would
almost inevitably be consequences for others which is why most do not choose to pursue their fantasy of choice. Operating within the realm of the
practical is therefore a better option. One can still push ones mind as far as one wishes to however. I find that as I get older my own mind is more
open and less inflexible. And so I no longer feel the need to have fixed opinions on absolutely everything or only listen to those whose voices I like
the sound of. I like listening to those who think differently to me as they challenge my own thinking and this demonstrates open mindedness I can
quite easily do this for I see myself more an observer than a participant. I accept I am only passing through this world and life is just a temporary
blip before the eternal sleep of non consciousness. That is why I allow my mind to be as free as it can in the relatively short time I have left here

[Lacewing]

Can you imagine -- even if only slightly or briefly -- experiencing and seeing from another perspective that might differ significantly from your current reality and from who/what you think you are?

Yes I can but it's not always something I would dare to admit to

Your honesty and openness is refreshing, Harbal! Thank you.

sometimes "society" makes it quite clear that doing that is not acceptable. We aren't supposed to see things from the point of view of Adolf Hitler or a terrorist or a paedophile, our attempts to try and work out what makes these people tick would be misunderstood as being sympathetic to them.

Good point! I guess this is an example of how the "us and them" mentality separates the "good" from "bad", narrows understanding, and serves to control people from asking questions. When people don't see beyond who they think they are, what IS BEYOND who they think they are tends to be labeled "evil". Seems very primitive. (In other words... don't go outside of the stone border wall of the village!)

It seems to me that we need to have insight in order to work out what to do about the problem people among us, or even to be able to tolerate those who are different from us.

I agree. Ignoring/dismissing what's in front of us, as if it's not "of us", seems to result in louder reactions... almost as if "the larger system" is out of balance from the lack of broader vision/recognition. Evolution probably must always strive for wholeness over fractured parts. What did ancient people understand about being part of a system, that we've lost sight of in favor of defining everything for ourselves?

[Impenitent]

some fiction novels do the trick

-Imp

[Lacewing]

I find that as I get older my own mind is more open and less inflexible. And so I no longer feel the need to have fixed opinions on absolutely everything or only listen to those whose voices I like the sound of.

That's wonderful!

So interesting... the evolving perspectives a person can cycle through in their lifetime. Yet, many people don't seem to contemplate the implications of that -- rather, they're busy defending the rightness of themselves at each stage. What if people could accept that their perspectives aren't uniquely right, but perhaps, uniquely creative? What might we be open to then?

[Nick_A]

Lacewing

I can imagine being and experiencing all of these things, and that brings up questions for me about who/what we think we are (and are capable of), and how we’ve chosen and created as we have amidst all possibilities in whatever scenario we’re born into. If we’re simply choosing and creating as we go -- if nothing and no one must be a certain way -- if any of us could be almost anything -- how and why do reasonable, thinking people become so locked-in on their focused view to such a degree that they can’t see/understand/appreciate anything beyond that limited perspective?

As a whole people in modern cultures prefer wretched contentment as a way of life and a belief system which supports it. How many could be a Simone Weil in this day and age with the intellectual and emotional intelligence coupled with the need for truth necessary to defy wretched contentment in their own lives?

http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche/nuber.html

the hour of the great contempt. The hour when your happiness, too, arouses your disgust, and even your reason and your virtue.
The hour when you say, 'What matters my happiness? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment. But my happiness ought to justify existence itself.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my reason? Does it crave knowledge as the lion his food? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my virtue? As yet it has not made me rage. How weary I am of my good and my evil! All that is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'

"Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman--a rope over an abyss...
What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can be loved in man is that he is an overture and a going under...

Wretched contentment is precisely why everything remains as it is and the incredible potential for human “being” is lost.

Are you a victim of wretched contentment? If you are, how could you be expected to put yourself into the position of another other than in your imagination?

[Lacewing]

As a whole people in modern cultures prefer wretched contentment as a way of life and a belief system which supports it.

Not sure why you need to add the word "wretched". Realistically, wouldn't any people throughout history be doing what we're doing if they had the chance?

How comfortable is your computer chair and computer that you sit at writing all of this stuff? Are you wretched? Is the "truth" you believe in, any greater than countless other great truths?

How many could be a Simone Weil in this day and age with the intellectual and emotional intelligence coupled with the need for truth

You're really ridiculous, you know that? Your obsession with Simone makes you look like you have serious mental issues.

Why would anyone in this day and age need to be a Simone Weil. We are countless OTHERS... many, many, many EXCEEDING Simone... and surely she would applaud that, and she would get a restraining order against you.

[Nick_A]

As a whole people in modern cultures prefer wretched contentment as a way of life and a belief system which supports it.

Not sure why you need to add the word "wretched". Realistically, wouldn't any people throughout history be doing what we're doing if they had the chance?

How comfortable is your computer chair and computer that you sit at writing all of this stuff? Are you wretched? Is the "truth" you believe in, any greater than countless other great truths?

How many could be a Simone Weil in this day and age with the intellectual and emotional intelligence coupled with the need for truth

You're really ridiculous, you know that? Your obsession with Simone makes you look like you have serious mental issues.

Why would anyone in this day and age need to be a Simone Weil. We are countless OTHERS... many, many, many EXCEEDING Simone... and surely she would applaud that, and she would get a restraining order against you.

I see you didn't read the excerpt from Nietzsche in which he describes wretched contentment.

Is there any value in the search for truth over the pursuit of pleasure? Most would say no and support wretched contentment. There is no money in objective truth. Then there are the Simone types who devote their lives to experiential truth at the expense of the pursuit of pleasure and earn the growls of the Great Beast. If only we can learn their specific genetic makeup that is the cause of these deviants. Then they could be killed in the womb and wretched contentment wouldn't have to contend with their disturbing influence.

[Lacewing]

Is there any value in the search for truth over the pursuit of pleasure?

Why does one have to be religiously pitted against the other?

Can't "truth" be found anywhere and through anything as long as that's what you're open to?

Can't we entertain the pursuit of pleasure while remaining open for truth all along the way?

Why do you think things only work a certain way, Nick? Is it so that you can claim to know them?

[Nick_A]

Is there any value in the search for truth over the pursuit of pleasure?

Why does one have to be religiously pitted against the other?

Can't "truth" be found anywhere and through anything as long as that's what you're open to?

Can't we entertain the pursuit of pleasure while remaining open for truth all along the way?

Why do you think things only work a certain way, Nick? Is it so that you can claim to know them?

"Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be attained only by someone who is detached."~ Simone Weil

This is an idea well known in the East but ignored in the West where the social goal is attachment. Part of the experience of pleasure is our attachment to it. When you become capable of emotional detachment, then you can speak realistically of combining them. If you are like me you will learn that you are incapable of emotional detachment. The conscious quality necessary to enable it in pursuit of truth is still only a potential in us.

[Lacewing]

Part of the experience of pleasure is our attachment to it. When you become capable of emotional detachment, then you can speak realistically of combining them. If you are like me you will learn that you are incapable of emotional detachment. The conscious quality necessary to enable it in pursuit of truth is still only a potential in us.

What kind of attachment are you referring to -- that which is immobilizing, or any kind at all? We are attached to everything in/of this world, as it suits each of us, in order to be here. Why is that, in itself, a bad thing? If someone wants to detach and not be here, fine. You are attached to your ideas -- obsessed with them, in fact. What do you call that attachment? Awareness of perennial truths? Can't you see how you have set it up to protect and excuse yourself from being judged as you judge others?

[Nick_A]

Part of the experience of pleasure is our attachment to it. When you become capable of emotional detachment, then you can speak realistically of combining them. If you are like me you will learn that you are incapable of emotional detachment. The conscious quality necessary to enable it in pursuit of truth is still only a potential in us.

What kind of attachment are you referring to -- that which is immobilizing, or any kind at all? We are attached to everything in/of this world, as it suits each of us, in order to be here. Why is that, in itself, a bad thing? If someone wants to detach and not be here, fine. You are attached to your ideas -- obsessed with them, in fact. What do you call that attachment? Awareness of perennial truths? Can't you see how you have set it up to protect and excuse yourself from being judged as you judge others?

Attachment is the origin, the root of suffering; hence it is the cause of suffering.
- The Dalai Lama

Attachment causes emotional suffering because it prevents a person from experiencing the truth of themselves. Without a better idea of what we objectively ARE, how can we be expected to graduate from opinions (perspective) to reality (knowledge?) When we become what we are attached to, how can we verify anything other than our own emotional suffering?

Emotional suffering is a learned response. It isn't a quality we are born with. A person through the practice of conscious emotional detachment and the truths it reveals through conscious attention can eventually free themselves from the prison of conditioned reactions that deny the reality of what we ARE and the freedom to be human.

[Noax]

Can you imagine -- even if only slightly or briefly -- experiencing and seeing from another perspective that might differ significantly from your current reality and from who/what you think you are? Can you imagine having other qualities, limitations, fears, characteristics? Can you imagine being a terrorist, and seeing the world from that state of mind?

I think this is what empathy is, a skill one begins to pick up around 3 years of age. Yes, like to think I'm open to that. But I would not consider your examples to be a significant departure from my own reality.

Can you imagine having perspectives significantly separated in space? A hive mind? Being able to split into autonomous parts and then later rejoin? These are more significant departures and are perhaps beyond my empathy skills.

[Harbal]

As a whole people in modern cultures prefer wretched contentment as a way of life and a belief system which supports it.

Well you certainly seem to be content with continually making your wretched posts so I suppose you must have first hand knowledge of what it's like to experience wretched contentment.

How many could be a Simone Weil in this day and age

Some people spend a great deal of money in order not to be a Simone Weil, this day and age, cosmetic surgery isn't cheap, you know.