Perspective and Reality

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Nick_A
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:55 pm ...
Do you think you know others better than they know themselves, and is that why you talk over them when they are telling you that you are wrong in your descriptions of them?
Let's try an experiment Provide a description of yourself and see if I talk over you or elaborate on it in the attempt to better understand it.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:58 pm
fooloso4 wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:14 pm ...a short quote from Wittgenstein:

Yes. Being able to put oneself in the position of seeing from another perspective, does not mean judging what that perspective is about. Nick is simply continuing to bolster himself and his own perspective by claiming to know what another perspective is all about. Whereas, if Nick were to truly see from another perspective, he would be seeing from the value, strength, and logic of it. When one can see from other perspectives, I think it helps remind one that one's own perspective is but one of countless, like a universe of stars with none reigning supreme.
It isn’t a matter of judging right and wrong but of understanding the significance and potential of perspective for the love of wisdom or the goal of philosophy. Universalism is one thing and secularism is another.

Consider an eight toned musical scale for example. Does the note mi have an objective existence or can its individuality only be defined in terms of the octave and its position between re and fa?. Secularism is like the note mi that has forgotten it is part of an octave which gives it its meaning and purpose. By itself it is meaningless.. Secularists will define a human perspective in relation to what goes on in this world. Universalists are open to a human perspective that takes into account the meaning and purpose of the octave it is a part of. You want to discuss perspectives in the world and I am introducing the human perspective not confined to the world but connects levels of reality. They are not mutually exclusive. They are just different qualities of meaning.

Of course it is good to become able to put oneself into the position of another but the quality of the perspective that does it creates its value and as a secularist you have no idea what creates this value.
I think you mean '12 tone' although it's actually 12 semitones.
Nick_A
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Nick_A »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:58 pm
Yes. Being able to put oneself in the position of seeing from another perspective, does not mean judging what that perspective is about. Nick is simply continuing to bolster himself and his own perspective by claiming to know what another perspective is all about. Whereas, if Nick were to truly see from another perspective, he would be seeing from the value, strength, and logic of it. When one can see from other perspectives, I think it helps remind one that one's own perspective is but one of countless, like a universe of stars with none reigning supreme.
It isn’t a matter of judging right and wrong but of understanding the significance and potential of perspective for the love of wisdom or the goal of philosophy. Universalism is one thing and secularism is another.

Consider an eight toned musical scale for example. Does the note mi have an objective existence or can its individuality only be defined in terms of the octave and its position between re and fa?. Secularism is like the note mi that has forgotten it is part of an octave which gives it its meaning and purpose. By itself it is meaningless.. Secularists will define a human perspective in relation to what goes on in this world. Universalists are open to a human perspective that takes into account the meaning and purpose of the octave it is a part of. You want to discuss perspectives in the world and I am introducing the human perspective not confined to the world but connects levels of reality. They are not mutually exclusive. They are just different qualities of meaning.

Of course it is good to become able to put oneself into the position of another but the quality of the perspective that does it creates its value and as a secularist you have no idea what creates this value.
I think you mean '12 toned' although it's actually 12 semitones.
I did mean the eight tone diatonic scale. For those who understand the relationship of the intervals within an octave it becomes clear why everything in the universe turns in circles and cycles. I know some believe Pythagoras was one of those ancient Greeks with an iron age mentality so what could he discover about the law of octaves and the diatonic scale that represents it.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm

THE PHILOSOPHY OF MUSIC

It is highly probable that the Greek initiates gained their knowledge of the philosophic and therapeutic aspects of music from the Egyptians, who, in turn, considered Hermes the founder of the art. According to one legend, this god constructed the first lyre by stretching strings across the concavity of a turtle shell. Both Isis and Osiris were patrons of music and poetry. Plato, in describing the antiquity of these arts among the Egyptians, declared that songs and poetry had existed in Egypt for at least ten thousand years, and that these were of such an exalted and inspiring nature that only gods or godlike men could have composed them. In the Mysteries the lyre was regarded as the secret symbol of the human constitution, the body of the instrument representing the physical form, the strings the nerves, and the musician the spirit. Playing upon the nerves, the spirit thus created the harmonies of normal functioning, which, however, became discords if the nature of man were defiled.

While the early Chinese, Hindus, Persians, Egyptians, Israelites, and Greeks employed both vocal and instrumental music in their religious ceremonials, also to complement their poetry and drama, it remained for Pythagoras to raise the art to its true dignity by demonstrating its mathematical foundation. Although it is said that he himself was not a musician, Pythagoras is now generally credited with the discovery of the diatonic scale. Having first learned the divine theory of music from the priests of the various Mysteries into which he had been accepted, Pythagoras pondered for several years upon the laws governing consonance and dissonance. How he actually solved the problem is unknown, but the following explanation has been invented..............
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Lacewing
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:34 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 pm Do you think you know others better than they know themselves, and is that why you talk over them when they are telling you that you are wrong in your descriptions of them?
Let's try an experiment Provide a description of yourself and see if I talk over you or elaborate on it in the attempt to better understand it.
No, just answer the question.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:40 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 pm

It isn’t a matter of judging right and wrong but of understanding the significance and potential of perspective for the love of wisdom or the goal of philosophy. Universalism is one thing and secularism is another.

Consider an eight toned musical scale for example. Does the note mi have an objective existence or can its individuality only be defined in terms of the octave and its position between re and fa?. Secularism is like the note mi that has forgotten it is part of an octave which gives it its meaning and purpose. By itself it is meaningless.. Secularists will define a human perspective in relation to what goes on in this world. Universalists are open to a human perspective that takes into account the meaning and purpose of the octave it is a part of. You want to discuss perspectives in the world and I am introducing the human perspective not confined to the world but connects levels of reality. They are not mutually exclusive. They are just different qualities of meaning.

Of course it is good to become able to put oneself into the position of another but the quality of the perspective that does it creates its value and as a secularist you have no idea what creates this value.
I think you mean '12 toned' although it's actually 12 semitones.

I did mean the eight tone diatonic scale.
For those who understand the relationship of the intervals within an octave it becomes clear why everything in the universe turns in circles and cycles. I know some believe Pythagoras was one of those ancient Greeks with an iron age mentality so what could he discover about the law of octaves and the diatonic scale that represents it.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm

THE PHILOSOPHY OF MUSIC

It is highly probable that the Greek initiates gained their knowledge of the philosophic and therapeutic aspects of music from the Egyptians, who, in turn, considered Hermes the founder of the art. According to one legend, this god constructed the first lyre by stretching strings across the concavity of a turtle shell. Both Isis and Osiris were patrons of music and poetry. Plato, in describing the antiquity of these arts among the Egyptians, declared that songs and poetry had existed in Egypt for at least ten thousand years, and that these were of such an exalted and inspiring nature that only gods or godlike men could have composed them. In the Mysteries the lyre was regarded as the secret symbol of the human constitution, the body of the instrument representing the physical form, the strings the nerves, and the musician the spirit. Playing upon the nerves, the spirit thus created the harmonies of normal functioning, which, however, became discords if the nature of man were defiled.

While the early Chinese, Hindus, Persians, Egyptians, Israelites, and Greeks employed both vocal and instrumental music in their religious ceremonials, also to complement their poetry and drama, it remained for Pythagoras to raise the art to its true dignity by demonstrating its mathematical foundation. Although it is said that he himself was not a musician, Pythagoras is now generally credited with the discovery of the diatonic scale. Having first learned the divine theory of music from the priests of the various Mysteries into which he had been accepted, Pythagoras pondered for several years upon the laws governing consonance and dissonance. How he actually solved the problem is unknown, but the following explanation has been invented..............
I doubt it somehow. Perhaps you mean 'eight notes' CDEFGABC?
Belinda
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Belinda »

Lacewing wrote:
When one can see from other perspectives, I think it helps remind one that one's own perspective is but one of countless, like a universe of stars with none reigning supreme.
The good this reminder does is that it prepares one to reflect upon one's current perspective. There comes a time when contemplating several perspectives is not an option and we have to act upon the perspective that we have selected.The best we can hope for is that we can be flexible enough to change. The theists may rightly object that any man needs firm principles, and the Rock of Ages provides those principles.

But the principles which that ages-old God has written on tablets of stone are the same for everybody. The dichotomy is not between believers and unbelievers but between actively moral people and quiescent people. Fooloso4 posted in this thread a quotation from Wittgenstein to the effect that Darwin's and Newton 's theories were "fertile". I think that great moral theories are fertile in the sense of freeing individuals from quiescence.

I can immediately think of an objection to what I just wrote . I refer to a post in this thread, from Greta, who wrote (as I remember) that poor people in SE Asia and India need quiescent Buddhism to survive. So moral fertility depends upon a degree of affluence in order to be viable.
Nick_A
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:48 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:34 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 pm Do you think you know others better than they know themselves, and is that why you talk over them when they are telling you that you are wrong in your descriptions of them?
Let's try an experiment Provide a description of yourself and see if I talk over you or elaborate on it in the attempt to better understand it.
No, just answer the question.
Yes, I can know them better than they can. I know that I am subject to self deception and hypocrisy. I've experienced it through my attempts at self knowledge. They would never admit it but it is obvious to me that fooloso4 is an egoist and Greta relies on image. The more you can know yourself, the more you can know others. it is just common sense. You can't BS an old BSer
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Greta
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 amYes, I can know them better than they can. I know that I am subject to self deception and hypocrisy. I've experienced it through my attempts at self knowledge. They would never admit it but it is obvious to me that fooloso4 is an egoist and Greta relies on image. The more you can know yourself, the more you can know others. it is just common sense. You can't BS an old BSer
As a semi-recluse, I'm not sure what use an image would be for me. Your constant lying and misrepresentation disgusts me.

I was going to make a witty reply but I am tired of fighting with you. You are much younger than I am, filled with testosterone and a blistering hatred that can is apparently inexhaustible.
Nick_A
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:55 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 amYes, I can know them better than they can. I know that I am subject to self deception and hypocrisy. I've experienced it through my attempts at self knowledge. They would never admit it but it is obvious to me that fooloso4 is an egoist and Greta relies on image. The more you can know yourself, the more you can know others. it is just common sense. You can't BS an old BSer
As a semi-recluse, I'm not sure what use an image would be for me. Your constant lying and misrepresentation disgusts me.

I was going to make a witty reply but I am tired of fighting with you. You are much younger than I am, filled with testosterone and a blistering hatred that can is apparently inexhaustible.
That is your image. You rely on ad hom attacks to defend it. Accusing me of blistering hatred is just an unbalanced defense of an image denying the ability to be real. If you think this is blistering hatred it is an insult to blistering hatred.
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Greta
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Greta »

fooloso4 wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:14 pmLacewing:
At times I notice changes in those who seem to be so rigid... as they try to pretend that more progressive ideas were always part of their view.
Yes, I have noticed that as well.

There is a philosophical theme that goes largely unnoticed. It is a fundamental feature of Plato’s dialogues but often ignored, namely, character or temperament. The focus on universal truths had dominated the philosophical landscape, but there are still those like Nietzsche and Wittgenstein who still emphasize the personal dimension. In an attempt to return to topic, a short quote from Wittgenstein:
Working in philosophy -- like work in architecture in many respects -- is really more a working on oneself. On one's interpretation. On one's way of seeing things. (And what one expects of them.) (Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, 16)
There may be a touch of "as above, so below" here too, given recent findings suggesting that gravity apparently does not impact on quantum spin. If that's true, then a TOE is impossible and there must remain two disciplines to describe physics. That would mean that reality is actually dual or appears to be. There is a poetry to it - a macro relativistic reality built on an inner quantum realm.
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Lacewing
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 am Yes, I can know them better than they can. I know that I am subject to self deception and hypocrisy. I've experienced it through my attempts at self knowledge. They would never admit it but it is obvious to me that fooloso4 is an egoist and Greta relies on image. The more you can know yourself, the more you can know others. it is just common sense. You can't BS an old BSer
I'm glad you admitted that you think this -- as it was obvious. It's very foolish of you, but at least you owned it. I have seen you make-up completely false motives and traits about people, including me. And you describe your own delusional behavior in such vivid detail... and then project it onto others. It's so obvious, Nick -- and you've received a lot of feedback to this effect. It's as if you are fighting with yourself. Fascinating... the intensity of denial, dishonesty, and sneakiness it seems you need to maintain it. I do not doubt that it takes some intelligence to twist and manipulate things as you do, and then write about it as if it is more than it is. It just seems unfortunate that you do not engage in broader clarity with others -- instead, possessing and interpreting a limited reality which has the primary directive of serving/elevating yourself. You can be the all-knowing keeper of it... and perhaps that's the appeal? Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven? :)
Nick_A
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:17 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 am Yes, I can know them better than they can. I know that I am subject to self deception and hypocrisy. I've experienced it through my attempts at self knowledge. They would never admit it but it is obvious to me that fooloso4 is an egoist and Greta relies on image. The more you can know yourself, the more you can know others. it is just common sense. You can't BS an old BSer
I'm glad you admitted that you think this -- as it was obvious. It's very foolish of you, but at least you owned it. I have seen you make-up completely false motives and traits about people, including me. And you describe your own delusional behavior in such vivid detail... and then project it onto others. It's so obvious, Nick -- and you've received a lot of feedback to this effect. It's as if you are fighting with yourself. Fascinating... the intensity of denial, dishonesty, and sneakiness it seems you need to maintain it. I do not doubt that it takes some intelligence to twist and manipulate things as you do, and then write about it as if it is more than it is. It just seems unfortunate that you do not engage in broader clarity with others -- instead, possessing and interpreting a limited reality which has the primary directive of serving/elevating yourself. You can be the all-knowing keeper of it... and perhaps that's the appeal? Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven? :)
“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”
― Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy
Which is more important for your perspective: acquiring imagined prestige for being an acceptable part of a social lie or opening to the truth of the human condition necessary for the objective development of ones own being? For most here it appears that social being rules the day. Pointing out that the emperor has no clothes will get a kid boiled in oil.

No I do not worship the Great Beast. I agree with Simone when she wrote that it will be necessary to have the courage to annoy the Great Beast in pursuit of truth. A perspective sustained by a lie can make for a more pleasant life while a perspective dedicated to experiential truth will make for a harder but more meaningful life. Most are content to sacrifice potential conscious individuality in acceptance of the dominance and rewards of holding social being as the greatest human value. If the government representing the Beast proclaims that 2+2 now equals 5, who am I to argue?
“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
The power of the group mind lies in the ability to lie to yourself and transform it into prestige. The goal of secularism and the worship of the great Beast requires this ability in order to create its perspective. Is it any wonder that philosophy defined as the love of wisdom has gone underground. The glory of the great lie is dominant and is now called wisdom.
mystical_universe
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Re: Perspective and Reality

Post by mystical_universe »

To live is to experience life, and form our own form of perception of it,

all The signals and events that radiate from it will be interpreted and perceived differently by us all,

To live is to realize that our sense of reality, is actually nothing more than a sensation we experience that we link to our Logicall and rational believes.

The way we perceive things to be depends on the strength of our consciousness and how high our level of lucidity is,

This will determine the effect and influence life will eventually have on our logical way of reasoning and our abillity to contemplate and speculate Rationally,

These factors can have a huge impact on our Conceptual Development, and the outlook we will eventually have on life,

we all live different lives, Different visions, and different realities,

so its not that crazy to Imagine that maybe just maybe,

we are all living a different version of the same life,
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