Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

In my opinion, no. But how do you account for people's sensitivities? What about other animals? Even trees and plants may have their own way of reacting.

What do you think?

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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Harbal »

It all depends on the definitions you use, Phil. It's one of those questions designed to demonstrate how restrictive our normal way of thinking is.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by seeds »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:34 am In my opinion, no. But how do you account for people's sensitivities? What about other animals? Even trees and plants may have their own way of reacting.

What do you think?
With just a few minor changes, I’ve taken the liberty of copying and pasting something I posted in an alternate forum regarding the “tree in the forest” question:

The following thought experiment is from the perspective of quantum/holographic theories (including my own)...

Image

I am not certain of the origin of the picture above, but for illustrative purposes we can consider it to be the “interference pattern” in the photographic plate of a laser hologram.

As is typical with these types of holograms, if you shine a laser into the holographic plate, a three-dimensional image of, let’s say, a “tree” will spring-forth into “reality” due to the conjoined relationship between the laser light and that of the correlated patterns of information in the photographic emulsion.

In other words, if there was no laser then there would be no tree.

That being said, it is important to keep in mind that every detail of the dynamic structure of the tree (albeit virtual in this case) is precisely encoded in this field of wave-like information.

Now I know it is difficult (and again, just for illustrative purposes) try to imagine that the wave-like quantum underpinning of the entire universe is contained within the image above, representing the “ultimate hologram,” if you will.

Which means that every aspect of the three-dimensional features of our bodies, our cities, the mountains, the jungles, the clouds, the oceans, etc,...

...indeed every object of the entire 3-D reality of the universe...

...owes its dynamic structure to the invisible correlations taking place between patterns of information that do not seem to be very “real” themselves, but are capable of becoming anything real “imaginable.”

Now picture the patterns as being in motion...

...(in what physicist David Bohm calls the “Holomovement” of the “Implicate Order” of reality)...

...as they reconfigure themselves in direct correlation to the dynamic interactions taking place between the 3-D objects they represent. In other words, the patterns are in constant flux based on the movement of cars, insects, animals, birds, leaves; the changes in temperatures, light colors, chemical reactions, biological permutations, etc., etc...

...(all taking place at what Bohm calls the “Explicate Order” of the 3-D level of the universe).

Now, as all of that pertains to the topic of this thread, I want you to look once again at the field of holographic-like information represented below...

Image

...and then realize that every dynamic and multi-sensory detail of the “tree falling in the forest” (its sound, its look, the vibrations it caused, etc.) has a direct corollary in the patterns of quantum information in the “super hologram” of the universe.

And just like with a regular hologram minus its explicating laser...

...without the presence of the “laser” of living consciousness (metaphorically speaking) shining in and melding with the information (collapsing the wave function), then nothing that humans call “real” (sound, for example) takes place — just a reconfiguring of the quantum underpinning.

Come back the next day to shine your “laser of consciousness” in the area where the tree fell and, of course, you will explicate from the patterns of information — a fallen tree with all of its implications.

(In other words, in the absence of consciousness, the threads of information that form the structural fabric of reality continue to weave themselves into the appropriate configuration so that reality always unfolds as expected. However, until consciousness arrives on the scene, there will only be “changing patterns of information” that hold the “promise” of sights and sounds, but only if consciousness is looking and listening.)

The fullness of reality itself can only be experienced through a “complementary wholeness” that occurs through the conjoining of consciousness with that of the infinitely malleable “mental-like” essence that underpins and forms the three-dimensional structures that consciousness itself calls “reality.”

And based on that last statement (and on my own personal “Panentheistic/Berkeleyanish” opinion), I suggest that absolutely everything is composed of “mind stuff” (i.e., mental imaging energy/mental holography), wherein all of the phenomenal features of the universe are constructed from an extremely advanced version of the same fundamental substance that forms our own thoughts and dreams.

(On this site, I offered an alternate vision of the “falling tree” issue where I used a DVD instead of a hologram. See this post here: http://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtopi ... 30#p318840)
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Last edited by seeds on Sun May 28, 2023 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by thedoc »

The world exists, whether consciousness exists or not, everything else is BS.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by thedoc »

Seeds, you've really gotten sucked into this metaphysical nonsense, haven't you?
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by seeds »

thedoc wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:53 am Seeds, you've really gotten sucked into this metaphysical nonsense, haven't you?
And you actually think of yourself as someone with an open mind? Seriously?

No offense intended, doc, but like most humans on earth, you are sleep-walking through life.

You are completely oblivious of the fact (as are all hardcore materialists) that the more heartfelt and passionate you are in articulating your belief in materialism, you in turn demonstrate – in direct proportion – the depth and degree of your somnambulism.

Yeah, yeah, I know, more metaphysical nonsense.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

"Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?"

Some things are already implied in the sentence: that there is a tree, that it is in the forest and that it is falling. Why cherry-pick the sound as the only relevant event? Why not visibility? Movement? Occupying space? Obviously, the aim of the question is to challenge the idea that things objectively exist independent of our perception. But our lack of perception of a particular, of which the general case is well known, does not constitute a good reason for denying the existence of the particular, or any of its properties.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by thedoc »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:15 am "Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?"

Some things are already implied in the sentence: that there is a tree, that it is in the forest and that it is falling. Why cherry-pick the sound as the only relevant event? Why not visibility? Movement? Occupying space? Obviously, the aim of the question is to challenge the idea that things objectively exist independent of our perception. But our lack of perception of a particular, of which the general case is well known, does not constitute a good reason for denying the existence of the particular, or any of its properties.
That is a really roundabout way of saying that it does make a sound.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Harbal »

thedoc wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:35 amThat is a really roundabout way of saying that it does make a sound.
The question is, does a falling tree make a noise. The first think to establish is: what is a noise?
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:49 am
thedoc wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:35 amThat is a really roundabout way of saying that it does make a sound.
The question is, does a falling tree make a noise. The first think to establish is: what is a noise?
Facts:
Form receives light.
Light is invisible until reflected by form.
Form is invisible until form reflects light.
Sound is invisible until detected by form.
Sound moves invisibly through a medium until detected.
Light moves invisibly through darkness until reflected.
Light invisibly transmits sound through darkness and vacuum.

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.

Metaphorical implication: Light is like God.

Metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Like light, God is invisible until detected via relationship of reflection or detection.

Moving on, what isn’t reflected is absorbed as heat.

Implication of the metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Reflect as much God as possible so as not to melt down from the absorbed heat.
Last edited by Walker on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:39 am
Facts:
Form receives light.
Light is invisible until reflected by form.
Form is invisible until form reflects light.
Sound is invisible until detected by form.
Sound moves invisibly through a medium until detected.
Light moves invisibly through darkness until reflected.
Light invisibly transmits sound through darkness and vacuum.

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.
I think you're missing the point, Walker.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:55 am
Walker wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:39 am
Facts:
Form receives light.
Light is invisible until reflected by form.
Form is invisible until form reflects light.
Sound is invisible until detected by form.
Sound moves invisibly through a medium until detected.
Light moves invisibly through darkness until reflected.
Light invisibly transmits sound through darkness and vacuum.

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.
I think you're missing the point, Walker.
De point

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.

Metaphorical implication: Light is like God.

Metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Like light, God is invisible until detected via relationship of reflection or detection.

Moving on, what isn’t reflected is absorbed as heat.

Implication of the metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Reflect as much God as possible so as not to melt down from the absorbed heat.

(Gracias for the opportunity to highlight via repetition, Harbal. Interesting the comparison of contemplations allowed in the same time span by simultaneously addending and commenting, eh? One is a neiner, one is a contemplation.)
Last edited by Walker on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:56 am
De point

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.

Metaphorical implication: Light is like God.

Metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Like light, God is invisible until detected via relationship of reflection or detection.

Moving on, what isn’t reflected is absorbed as heat.

Implication of the metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Reflect as much God as possible so as not to melt down from the absorbed heat.
Well done, Walker, I'm sure you've shed some light on something but, unfortunately, not the question at hand.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:03 pm
Walker wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:56 am
De point

Adding up the facts: vibrations become sound or light only in relationship with a receiver or reflector.

Metaphorical implication: Light is like God.

Metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Like light, God is invisible until detected via relationship of reflection or detection.

Moving on, what isn’t reflected is absorbed as heat.

Implication of the metaphysical implication of the metaphorical implication: Reflect as much God as possible so as not to melt down from the absorbed heat.
Well done, Walker, I'm sure you've shed some light on something but, unfortunately, not the question at hand.
Gracias for the opportunity to highlight via repetition, Harbal. Interesting the comparison of contemplations allowed in the same time span by simultaneously addending and commenting, eh? One is a neiner, one is a contemplation.

Make that a double neiner revealed in the process.

Eventually, one evolves beyond the neiner phase and into contemplation.
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Re: Does a falling tree make noise in the forest?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:06 pm
Gracias for the opportunity to highlight via repetition, Harbal. Interesting the comparison of contemplations allowed in the same time span by simultaneously addending and commenting, eh? One is a neiner, one is a contemplation.

Make that a double neiner revealed in the process.

Eventually, one evolves beyond the neiner phase and into contemplation.
Well said, whatever it means.
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