Secular Intolerance

[Harbal]

So who suffers? The young who are not yet able to see it for what it is.

Was it your teachers who screwed you up, Nick, or was it something else?

[Nick_A]

So who suffers? The young who are not yet able to see it for what it is.

Was it your teachers who screwed you up, Nick, or was it something else?

It happened when I put my first harem together. it sounds nice but when a man is unable to satisfy three women at the same time, all hell breaks loose and it can scar you for life.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

What is the process of spirit killing?

What spirit killing means for me is destruction of the impulse to curiosity, adventure, autonomy, love, courage, and pleasure.

You?

[Harbal]

It happened when I put my first harem together. it sounds nice but when a man is unable to satisfy three women at the same time, all hell breaks loose and it can scar you for life.

Hopefully it will teach you to be a bit more realistic in future. Maybe you'd be more successful with men, perhaps you've been barking up the wrong tree.

[Nick_A]

Nick_A wrote:

What is the process of spirit killing?

What spirit killing means for me is destruction of the impulse to curiosity, adventure, autonomy, love, courage, and pleasure.

You?

You seem to be referring to self esteem. For a person who is nothing but a personality, this would be destroying their connection to the World. But what of those who are not just a personality?

Simone Weil describes the purpose of education and the teacher’s objective responsibility to further opening the mind as opposed to supporting indoctrination.

Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.

Yes this is the problem. The goal of education has devolved into teaching adaptation to cave life as it exists and arguing partial truths. These newly manufactured teachers don’t even know they are in the cave much less what is needed to get out.

"The wisdom of Plato is not a philosophy, a search for God by means of human reason. . . . . Plato’s wisdom is nothing but an orientation of the soul toward grace.” ~ La Source Grecque

Spirit killing is what deprives the student of this natural inner development the experience of a change in inner direction. but instead keeps these students attached to the shadows on the wall. Jacob Needleman describes it:

http://www.conversations.org/story.php?sid=1

……………..I recovered quite well, but I had to find a few other people who shared my hunger. It is the hunger you're speaking of. That is what Plato called eros—a word that's come down to us which has taken on a sexual association. But for Plato it had to do, in part, with a striving that is innate in us, a striving to participate with one's mind, one's consciousness, in something greater than oneself. A love of wisdom, if you like, a love of being. Eros is depicted in Plato's text, The Symposium, as half man, half god, a kind of intermediate force between the gods and mortals. It is a very interesting idea. Eros is what gives birth to philosophy. Modern philosophy often translates the word "wonder" merely as "curiosity," the desire to figure things out, or to intellectually solve problems rather than confronting the depth of these questions, pondering, reflecting, being humbled by them. In this way, philosophy becomes an exercise in meaningless ingenuity. I did learn to play that game, and then to avoid it. My students at SF State were very hungry for what most of us, down deeply, really want from philosophy. When we honor those unanswerable questions and open them and deepen them, students are very happy about it, very interested in a deep quiet way………………………………….

Secularism considers the attraction to eros as an unnecessary annoyance that must be devolved and outgrown in favor of indoctrination and partial truths serving the Great Beast. Teachers participating in this form of child abuse are spirit killers.

[Nick_A]

It happened when I put my first harem together. it sounds nice but when a man is unable to satisfy three women at the same time, all hell breaks loose and it can scar you for life.

Hopefully it will teach you to be a bit more realistic in future. Maybe you'd be more successful with men, perhaps you've been barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not one who enjoys barking up either the wrong or the right tree. I prefer playing in the bushes

[Greta]

From Simone Weil’s
Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.
Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.
Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.
That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

I note that you don't check whether Simone knows what she is talking about.

Why is the longing for goodness related the realities that are unknown, outside of human experience? Maybe, maybe not. It's just an assumption. Further, I do not see this universal longing for goodness, nor agreement on what 'goodness" entails. Even within churches there are deep rifts between their conservative and progressive factions.

You simply assume that all conservatism and reversion to prior societal states is good and progressivism is bad and build assumptions upon assumptions. Thus you convince yourself, in the face of religious control over most societies for most of history, that the non religious are "intolerant", just because we have managed to slightly loosen the theistic shackles that have controlled us since day one. So even today most western governments are largely run by devoted theists, with secular thinkers shoved aside. With occasional brief exceptions, it's always been thus. Ultimately, Nick is unhappy that religion only mostly controls all societies. He requires complete religious control of all societies, it seems.



Nick's complaints are akin to Rupert Murdoch grumbling about a local boy delivering papers eating into his news business.

[Harbal]

I prefer playing in the bushes

Then you should stick to disappointing one bush at a time.

[Nick_A]

From Simone Weil’s
Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.
Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.
Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.
That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

I note that you don't check whether Simone knows what she is talking about.

Why is the longing for goodness related the realities that are unknown, outside of human experience? Maybe, maybe not. It's just an assumption. Further, I do not see this universal longing for goodness, nor agreement on what 'goodness" entails. Even within churches there are deep rifts between their conservative and progressive factions.

You simply assume that all conservatism and reversion to prior societal states is good and progressivism is bad and build assumptions upon assumptions. Thus you convince yourself, in the face of religious control over most societies for most of history, that the non religious are "intolerant", just because we have managed to slightly loosen the theistic shackles that have controlled us since day one. So even today most western governments are largely run by devoted theists, with secular thinkers shoved aside. With occasional brief exceptions, it's always been thus. Ultimately, Nick is unhappy that religion only mostly controls all societies. He requires complete religious control of all societies, it seems.



Nick's complaints are akin to Rupert Murdoch grumbling about a local boy delivering papers eating into his news business.

Simone Weil has been called Plato’s spiritual child. It isn’t a matter of her being right but rather if Plato and Plotinus are right as to the nature of man and universal structure.

The human organism has a lower part which normally lives our lives and a higher part which is mostly dormant and is the concern of human conscious evolution. The seed of the soul is within this higher part and this seed is a reflection of the Source but only on a lower level much like low C is in the image of high C on the piano but on a lower level of vibration. It has needs our lower parts like other animals must be oblivious of.

Animals without a higher part do not live in contradiction. Man does. The lower opposes the higher creating contradiction and hypocrisy.The universal longing for goodness is passive in our being. Our lower parts are active and dominate our higher parts. It is the absurdity of the human condition

Higher values are a potential for our higher parts. They just get in the way of our lower parts and their imagined value is in their perversion..

The advantage of prior societal states as in America is that people looked up to and respected higher values greater than what the grand collective offers. Regardless of normal human hypocrisy they help awaken people capable of psychological awakening. The highest value for progressivism is what the state offers. Most believe this. I believe it must lead to disaster. I support the minority who appreciate the source of higher human values beyond the domain of the state and a higher level of reality the being of man can consciously evolve towards.

Secular intolerance opposes this view with all the imagined superiority and associated condemnation it can muster. Unfortunately the kids suffer the results of these attacks.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

Yes this is the problem. The goal of education has devolved into teaching adaptation to cave life as it exists and arguing partial truths. These newly manufactured teachers don’t even know they are in the cave much less what is needed to get out.

The trend in the ignorance, cave dwelling, direction is marked by many standardised tests , by separating children into failures and successes at about age eleven or twelve sometimes in separate buildings, by reducing the country's contribution to free state education to tertiary level e.g. fewer qualified teachers, and by cutting expenditure on the breadth of curriculums.

If you want all children to see truth instead of remaining pawns of a state you should support the teachers who tend very much to want children to be liberated from the cave. You should be politically engaged.

[Greta]

The advantage of prior societal states as in America is that people looked up to and respected higher values greater than what the grand collective offers. Regardless of normal human hypocrisy they help awaken people capable of psychological awakening. The highest value for progressivism is what the state offers. Most believe this. I believe it must lead to disaster. I support the minority who appreciate the source of higher human values beyond the domain of the state and a higher level of reality the being of man can consciously evolve towards.

Secular intolerance opposes this view with all the imagined superiority and associated condemnation it can muster. Unfortunately the kids suffer the results of these attacks.

Conservatives and older people have been singing that same song for, I suppose, thousands of years. Never mind, time marches on. We pass on the baton to the next generation and hope they do better than we did.

The highest value of progressivism is not what the state offers. Its highest value is yet to happen. That's the point, Nick. Think about it - progressivism ... progress ... not standing still. Changing, improving, refining, reassessing. Meanwhile religion attempts to remain static but inevitably undergoes its own evolution (whether they believe in it or not) with changing interpretations of the texts.

I don't mind the more recent claims of God being the ground of being or is love, but it seems to me that most modern interpretations expressed by the laity are surprisingly childish in their anthropomorphism. If you were to claim that this straightforward opinion is a sign of secular intolerance, then I'd see that as political correctness.

[Walker]

The highest value of progressivism is not what the state offers. Its highest value is yet to happen. That's the point, Nick. Think about it - progressivism ... progress ... not standing still. Changing, improving, refining, reassessing.

Good grief. That’s like saying: Hillary Clinton is brilliant. Brilliance, think about it … etc.

However, connect the word brilliant to results and methods, and the bulb significantly dims.

That's why progressives need fake news, to go along with the fake ideology.

- What a shock when reality doesn't meet assumption, and the election is lost.
- What a shock not, when the Great Society turns out to be Great Big Government. It's the logical result.
- As time goes on the compensations to the original Constitution design are creating a Frankenstein of Progressive meddling, yet by agreement folks are legally still bound to the original intent when it comes right down to it, as we learned after the 9th circuit court shenanigans were once again overruled by the Supreme Court, in recognizing the legal authority of the POTUS.
- The agreement is what violent revolution rejects.

[Nick_A]

Nick_A wrote:

Yes this is the problem. The goal of education has devolved into teaching adaptation to cave life as it exists and arguing partial truths. These newly manufactured teachers don’t even know they are in the cave much less what is needed to get out.

The trend in the ignorance, cave dwelling, direction is marked by many standardised tests , by separating children into failures and successes at about age eleven or twelve sometimes in separate buildings, by reducing the country's contribution to free state education to tertiary level e.g. fewer qualified teachers, and by cutting expenditure on the breadth of curriculums.

If you want all children to see truth instead of remaining pawns of a state you should support the teachers who tend very much to want children to be liberated from the cave. You should be politically engaged.

Where are these teachers who understand the essential quality necessary for the young to awaken to reality. You still believe cave politics is the solution. It cannot be since politics is just an expression of the same hypocrisy which governs our life. Just assume for a moment that Simone Weil is right concerning the effect of imagination on the human psyche. If she is right what good is politics and what do you think would be necessary to struggle against the results of imagination

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.

Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it. Simone Weil

The natural awakening influence will be opposed by secularism and the dominance of the Great Beast. It is offensive. Living by habitual and approved imagination regardless if it furthers or diminishes self esteem is considered the only alternative. Just think for a moment: what is the natural alternative for both an individual and society being a slave to imagination?

[Greta]

The highest value of progressivism is not what the state offers. Its highest value is yet to happen. That's the point, Nick. Think about it - progressivism ... progress ... not standing still. Changing, improving, refining, reassessing.

Good grief. That’s like saying: Hillary Clinton is brilliant. Brilliance, think about it … etc.

Nonsense. No relation whatsoever. A silly over-emotional response. Take a deep breath, Walker.

The entire point of progressivism is obviously progress. The point of conservatism is to slow progress, presumably to allow systems to adapt. The tension and the competition between these, and other, concerns sculpts public policy.

[Walker]

The highest value of progressivism is not what the state offers. Its highest value is yet to happen. That's the point, Nick. Think about it - progressivism ... progress ... not standing still. Changing, improving, refining, reassessing.

Good grief. That’s like saying: Hillary Clinton is brilliant. Brilliance, think about it … etc.

Nonsense. No relation whatsoever. A silly over-emotional response. Take a deep breath, Walker.

The entire point of progressivism is obviously progress. The point of conservatism is to slow progress, presumably to allow systems to adapt. The tension and the competition between these, and other, concerns sculpts public policy.

Not at all. The good grief was for your lack of respect for the intelligence of human beings. Quite uncharacteristic.

Simply because some grifters appropriate a label does not confer the qualities of that label upon such clever antics.

What if they called themselves The Gods rather than The Progressives.

Would they be Gods?

If they exhibit Godlike powers of making what was, not, then perhaps.
But I can do that with a cheeseburger.