Secular Intolerance

[Nick_A]

Nick_A:

This passage was not designed to appeal to literal reason.

Instead of allowing the text show you how it is to be read you impose your notion of “levels of reality” on it and call this esotericism. You have not shown anything in the text to support your arbitrary reading and instead throw up a defense and claim that anyone who does not agree with you does not know how to to read the Bible. Blame it on secular intolerance but some of us expect textual support for an interpretation. Otherwise anyone can claim that the words mean whatever they say they mean and then accuse others of not knowing how to read the Bible. Your claim that you know how to read the Bible is not enough for anyone to take your interpretation seriously.

"Knowledge has three degrees: opinion, science, illumination. The means or instrument of the first is sense; of the second dialectic; of the third, intuition."
Plotinus, (Letter to Flaccus)

The purpose of the Bible isn't to offer scientific proofs or invite arguments over opinions. its purpose is to enable and further the experience of intuition through conscious contemplation

Are you familiar with the relationship between the microcosmos and the macrocosmos?

From wiki

Macrocosm and microcosm refers to a vision of cosmos where the part (microcosm) reflects the whole (macrocosm) and vice versa. It is a feature "present in all esoteric schools of thinking", according to scholar Pierre A. Riffard.[2] It is closely associated with Hermeticism and underlies practices such as astrology, alchemy, and sacred geometry with its premise of "As Above, So Below".[3]

If you consciously perceive of what it means for the microcosmos as a reflection of world creation existing withing the macrocosmos which is also a mini universe with microcosmoses inside of it. The idea here is that Man on earth is a grouping including microcosmoses with the conscious potential to become a macrocosmos - a higher quality of being.

Also from wiki

Robert Fludd's illustration of man as the microcosm within the universal macrocosm. Fludd states that "Man is a whole world of its own, called microcosm for it displays a miniature pattern of all the parts of the universe. Thus the head is related to the Empyreal, the chest to the ethereal heaven and the belly to the elementary substance."[1]

A person can experience the reality of this relationship through intuition and sacred scripture inspires intuition.

[Nick_A]

Matthew 12:46-50New International Version (NIV)
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

You do not know how to read the Bible. You try to define with the literal mind what is designed for the psychological mind. The crowd only knows physical mothers and brothers. Jesus is referring to those with a quality of being who are consciously connected with the above.

Exactly the rationale of religious cults for creating conflict in, and even breaking up, families. Family members are deemed unworthy if they don't buy into the religion's doctrine.

How tolerant have religions been throughout history? Hardly at all.

The sacred is always corrupted by the secular. It cannot be helped. A person must develop inner taste to separate the wheat from the tares. Cults thrive on imagination. Imagination and consciousness are mutually exclusive. The more a person becomes capable of conscious attention the less they can become a victim of a cult or false religious practices.

[Greta]

The sacred is always corrupted by the secular. It cannot be helped.

Too many words. This should read: "The sacred is always corrupted. It cannot be helped".

Religions have been exceptionally busy turning the sacred into atavistic hate fests.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

The purpose of the Bible isn't to offer scientific proofs or invite arguments over opinions. its purpose is to enable and further the experience of intuition through conscious contemplation

Your purpose, yes. But is this the purpose of each of the various authors, scribes, and editors of all the books in The Bible? If you claim that it is, you need in all honesty to back your claim with evidence resulting from much state of the art research . This research would be a hard nut for you to crack as it would set you on a course that your few remaining years of life and brain-power might not accommodate.

Nick wrote:

The sacred is always corrupted by the secular. It cannot be helped.

You have at last learned that 'secular' has a sociological meaning other than the popular one which implies only a moral judgement against unbelievers.
You have the beginning of a good point here. However the cause of the sacred's being corrupted is not that the secular did it. The cause of the sacred's being corrupted , as far as religious institutions are concerned, is the mass movement of people from traditional villages to towns where the old hierarchy does not retain its power . The secular culture is caused by the same absence of sacred beliefs and the same absence of the traditional power brokers of the old traditional ways.

In all sections of all societies there have been doubters, however the recent mass movement towards secular culture is caused by economic conditions.

[fooloso4]

Nick_A:

Plotinus, (Letter to Flaccus)

Your support for your arbitrary reading of the Gospels is to cite a pagan Neoplatonist?!

The purpose of the Bible …

This does not support your reading, it arbitrarily imposes a purpose that is not itself supported by the texts of the Bible.

Are you familiar with the relationship between the microcosmos and the macrocosmos?

This is not additional support for your arbitrary reading of the Gospels, it is additional evidence that you impose an arbitrary reading on the text. Unless you can provide textual support to show that the authors of the text were informed by this theory it is nothing more than forcing the text to conform with your beliefs.

[Nick_A]

Fooloso4, you are a secularist and secularists impose. It can include religious, political, educational, holistic or whatever. Secularism imposes its conclusions on others.

The Way is sacred so cannot be imposed. A person can only begin to feel an esoteric path that leads to the Way and receive what they can from following it. Nothing can be imposed. All a person can do is to receive and grow in the direction of the transcendent unity of religions.

You live in the exoteric world of opinions and will forever argue opinions. The world depends on these arguments to sustain the dominance of Plato's Cave.

https://integralscience.wordpress.com/1 ... religions/

Frithjof Schuon, a scholar and an authority on Comparative
Religion and the Sophia Perennis, has written a book called
The Transcendent Unity Of Religions. As its title
indicates, the book is about the unity of religious wisdom.
And as the use of the definite article indicates, this unity
is unique. But it is essential to observe that this unity is
also transcendent, i.e., the unity is in the spirit and not
in the letter.

Many young people sense the connection (eros) between the exoteric and transcendent. Those like you and Greta in education seek to kill their inner awareness and replace it with secular interpretations of value. I will always oppose these efforts at spirit killing you favor. And when these efforts are furthered through the intimidating attitudes pf secular intolerance, it is a most vile method of spirit killing

[Greta]

Fooloso4, you are a secularist and secularists impose. It can include religious, political, educational, holistic or whatever. Secularism imposes its conclusions on others.

This is contrary to your claims that secularism aims to avoid the strictures of the scriptures. So which is it? Is secularism about impositions or trying to escape them?

Or could it be that most people simply have a different idea about goodness to you? Why should you judge and damn others all the time? Why not accept that others are different to you and not necessarily more right or wrong? Each person simply lives their life the best they can.

I think you have difficulty accepting that because you hold such misanthropic ideas. You clearly don't want to think of people as usually essentially good, I'm guessing because they so often rejected you. So now you reject them back.

[Nick_A]

Belinda

Your purpose, yes. But is this the purpose of each of the various authors, scribes, and editors of all the books in The Bible? If you claim that it is, you need in all honesty to back your claim with evidence resulting from much state of the art research . This research would be a hard nut for you to crack as it would set you on a course that your few remaining years of life and brain-power might not accommodate.

What do you possibly believe state of the art secular research can reveal about the esoteric meanings of the Bible? I must admit that except for certain books in the Old Testament like Genesis and Job, I don’t understand it. However I do believe the authors of the New Testament had conscious awareness so had no incentive to secularize the sacred and were able to transmit it.

For example, this man didn’t need state of the art secular research. He needed to open to intuitive knowledge and with a little help he did. The Gretas and fooloso4s of the world will never allow themselves this experience but why should kids suffer because of this intolerance?

http://newbible.blogspot.com/2004/10/es ... bible.html

In our country the most common way of reading the Bible has been a literalistic interpretation: the Bible means exactly what it says in the most literal, historical, and material way. Some modern interpreters have deviated from that procedure. One of the more creative approaches is called the esoteric.


Maurice Nicoll, an English psychiatrist, published a small volume in 1950 named The New Man, republished in 1999 by Eureka Editions. In this work Nicoll commented on some of the parables and miracles of Jesus. He presented the esoteric (I call it the mythopoeic) interpretation of these passages in the New Testament.

This small book (200 pages) together with William Blake's poems and pictures, opened up a new world to me. It's a world in which biblical material becomes meaningful and alive in a way it lacked with the literalistic interpretation.

As a small example consider the story of the
Marriage at Cana in John 2, especially the miracle of the water and wine. Actually there were three items representing three different levels of truth.

The first level is seen in the "six waterpots of stone". Stone represents the lowest level of Truth (also represented by the stone of the 10 Commandments and the stony altar in which Elijah tilted with the prophets of Baal.

The second level is seen in water. Jesus told the servants to fill up the waterpots with water. This represents a higher level of truth. We find water throughout the Bible symbolizing the truth of God. Remember when Jesus talked with the woman at the well about water and gave her a drink of living water.

The third level is seen in the wine. "This is my blood of the New Testament". As a symbol fire is much the same, as the wine of the New Man and the fire of the Holy Spirit (See Acts 2).

This sort of symbolic import runs through the Bible from beginning to end. Becoming acquainted with some of the most significant symbols can add immeasureably to the pleasure and profit you get from the good book.

The cause of the sacred's being corrupted , as far as religious institutions are concerned, is the mass movement of people from traditional villages to towns where the old hierarchy does not retain its power . The secular culture is caused by the same absence of sacred beliefs and the same absence of the traditional power brokers of the old traditional ways.

The sacred connecting above and below requires consciousness to sustain its life giving potency in our species. Over time consciousness is replaced by imagination which creates secular dominance. Human consciousness is gradually replaced by animal awareness resulting in the human condition and the inhuman atrocities that have resulted from its supremacy.

[Nick_A]

Fooloso4, you are a secularist and secularists impose. It can include religious, political, educational, holistic or whatever. Secularism imposes its conclusions on others.

This is contrary to your claims that secularism aims to avoid the strictures of the scriptures. So which is it? Is secularism about impositions or trying to escape them?

Or could it be that most people simply have a different idea about goodness to you? Why should you judge and damn others all the time? Why not accept that others are different to you and not necessarily more right or wrong? Each person simply lives their life the best they can.

I think you have difficulty accepting that because you hold such misanthropic ideas. You clearly don't want to think of people as usually essentially good, I'm guessing because they so often rejected you. So now you reject them back.

Secularism relies on its God the Great Beast to decide right and wrong. The Great Beast replaces the traditional concept of God. The ten Commandments are there for traditional beliefs and political correctness is there for followers of the Beast.

Or could it be that most people simply have a different idea about goodness to you? Why should you judge and damn others all the time? Why not accept that others are different to you and not necessarily more right or wrong? Each person simply lives their life the best they can.

Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

So if Jesus isn't good, why would you call people good?

[Greta]

Secularism relies on its God the Great Beast to decide right and wrong. The Great Beast replaces the traditional concept of God. The ten Commandments are there for traditional beliefs and political correctness is there for followers of the Beast.

Basically, you are are one of thousands of conservatives who claim that liberals and progressives are evil.

Maximum prejudice, zero credibility.

Or could it be that most people simply have a different idea about goodness to you? Why should you judge and damn others all the time? Why not accept that others are different to you and not necessarily more right or wrong? Each person simply lives their life the best they can.

Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

So if Jesus isn't good, why would you call people good?

Now you deny that that the word "good" has any meaning other than to The Big Kahuna.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

What do you possibly believe state of the art secular research can reveal about the esoteric meanings of the Bible?

Sacred geometry, Biblical numerology, underground streams, connections between The Bible and the Druids of old Gaul, some folk traditions and some ancient burials, some of the thought of Pythagoras , and the combined role of priest kings, are esoteric matters which have been studied exoterically.

William Blake's poems and pictures

,

In my opinion you couldn't do much better. Blake's poetry and pictures have layers of meanings, and you need a good eye for symbolism and an overview of Blake's system to get the most out of them.

As a small example consider the story of the
Marriage at Cana in John 2, especially the miracle of the water and wine. Actually there were three items representing three different levels of truth.

The first level is seen in the "six waterpots of stone". Stone represents the lowest level of Truth (also represented by the stone of the 10 Commandments and the stony altar in which Elijah tilted with the prophets of Baal.

The second level is seen in water. Jesus told the servants to fill up the waterpots with water. This represents a higher level of truth. We find water throughout the Bible symbolizing the truth of God. Remember when Jesus talked with the woman at the well about water and gave her a drink of living water.

The third level is seen in the wine. "This is my blood of the New Testament". As a symbol fire is much the same, as the wine of the New Man and the fire of the Holy Spirit (See Acts 2).

This sort of symbolic import runs through the Bible from beginning to end. Becoming acquainted with some of the most significant symbols can add immeasureably to the pleasure and profit you get from the good book.

You know more about Biblical symbolism than I was giving you credit for. I myself don't doubt that there is much symbolic material in The Bible, symbolic material which has been intentionally included in The Bible. I don't know what motivated the very powerful men who edited The Bible to include the esoteric material. I do believe that it's a mistake to omit esoteric material when we are studying The Bible.

At the academic level of school children and most adults study of esoteric material may not be justifiable, as it is quite some study in itself with ramifications to ancient history, archaeology,and sociology, including the pagan world. If you could let us know the justifications for studying esoteric material in The Bible this would be most useful. I did actually attend a course on these matters and found the mathematics were too difficult for me, although much stuck in my mind about these ancient world views and how some folk traditions in England preserve them. For instance in the architecture of some very old parish churches.

PS With regard to Jesus the threefold death is interesting, also the gematria of 'Christos' and 'Apollo', although I forget how it goes, but there will be a copy of the gematria thingy online I am sure.

[fooloso4]

Nick_A:

Fooloso4, you are a secularist and secularists impose. It can include religious, political, educational, holistic or whatever.
Secularism imposes its conclusions on others.

This is just another attempt to shift the focus. My contention is that we allow the text to show the reader how it is to be read. How is that imposing something on the text?

The Way is sacred so cannot be imposed. A person can only begin to feel an esoteric path that leads to the Way and receive what they can from following it. Nothing can be imposed. All a person can do is to receive and grow in the direction of the transcendent unity of religions.

You have imposed your opinion on the sacred just as you have imposed your reading on the text. Only you are not even aware that it is nothing more than your opinion. You cannot grow in the direction of the transcendent unity of religion because you impose your beliefs on religion. You give lip service to the unity of religion, and yet you deny the truth to any religion that does not conform to your opinion. Appeal to the unity of religion is nothing more than a failed attempt to justify forcing your interpretation on the text. If you interpretation is correct it can be shown within the text. You attempt to point everywhere but the text.

[Nick_A]

Belinda

Sacred geometry, Biblical numerology, underground streams, connections between The Bible and the Druids of old Gaul, some folk traditions and some ancient burials, some of the thought of Pythagoras , and the combined role of priest kings, are esoteric matters which have been studied exoterically.

They are also scientific. A person who is open to understand Pythagoras’ law of octaves for example will understand a great deal of universal creation.

However, esoteric means “inner.” It relates to our inner world. The New Testament is about rebirth into the New Man; growth of human 'being" as opposed to the growth of facts. It cannot be explained in a text like the Law of Octaves and the Laws of Vibrations. Its value must be felt and come in part through the art of mythology, legends, and sacred scripture. Its purpose isn’t to teach as in science but to awaken as in psychology

In my opinion you couldn't do much better. Blake's poetry and pictures have layers of meanings, and you need a good eye for symbolism and an overview of Blake's system to get the most out of them.

If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: infinite.
For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. – Blake

Doesn’t this remind you of the prisoners in Plato’s cave? You know how that goes over here. I agree that symbolism is very important. But if people carry an attitude of secular intolerance and unwilling to experience and admit the fallen human condition and its effect on the human psych the inner meaning of symbols will just bounce off of their heads

At the academic level of school children and most adults study of esoteric material may not be justifiable, as it is quite some study in itself with ramifications to ancient history, archaeology,and sociology, including the pagan world. If you could let us know the justifications for studying esoteric material in The Bible this would be most useful. I did actually attend a course on these matters and found the mathematics were too difficult for me, although much stuck in my mind about these ancient world views and how some folk traditions in England preserve them. For instance in the architecture of some very old parish churches.

Did you complete the course with a sense of awe and wonder? Did you think that there is far more to these ancient ideas and construction then we know of? If you did, the course was worthwhile IMO.

"If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows." ― Plato, Phaedrus

The justification for exposing students to esoteric ideas isn’t to teach answers but to raise questions so they can get a taste of “meaning”. Allow understanding to grow much like the bud becomes the flower. If you have some stuffed shirt secularist in the front of the class teaching answers for test questions it is a complete turn off. Plato had the right idea but it has been lost in the shuffle

[Nick_A]

Nick_A:

Fooloso4, you are a secularist and secularists impose. It can include religious, political, educational, holistic or whatever.
Secularism imposes its conclusions on others.

This is just another attempt to shift the focus. My contention is that we allow the text to show the reader how it is to be read. How is that imposing something on the text?

The Way is sacred so cannot be imposed. A person can only begin to feel an esoteric path that leads to the Way and receive what they can from following it. Nothing can be imposed. All a person can do is to receive and grow in the direction of the transcendent unity of religions.

You have imposed your opinion on the sacred just as you have imposed your reading on the text. Only you are not even aware that it is nothing more than your opinion. You cannot grow in the direction of the transcendent unity of religion because you impose your beliefs on religion. You give lip service to the unity of religion, and yet you deny the truth to any religion that does not conform to your opinion. Appeal to the unity of religion is nothing more than a failed attempt to justify forcing your interpretation on the text. If you interpretation is correct it can be shown within the text. You attempt to point everywhere but the text.

The Bible: a book which either reads you or is worthless." Chazal

You won't let it read you so it cannot benefit you

[davidm]

The Bible: a book which either reads you or is worthless." Chazal

You won't let it read you so it cannot benefit you

Such unfettered and unwarranted arrogance, in equal measure.