Secular Intolerance

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Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
Again, you seem unable to see the difference between observations verified by many and your own subjective observations. Your attitude displays a weak and blinkered grasp of philosophic history, especially the growing need in ancient civilisations to verify people's varied subjective claims.
What are these unique observations many have verified that I have missed? Are you referring to the modern declaration that the Great Beast has become the God of all replacing all previous misguided conceptions of a source for all conscious quality? Of course over time many of the fallacies of religious fundamentalism have been exposed. However in the process the essence of religion has been thrown out with the fallacies. Only recently has the wheat begun to be separated from the tares and preserved for the few willing to experience beyond blind denial.
So, when someone chooses not to speak about their subjective stuff (as anyone could), you seem to assume that they don't have any subjective existence like David Chalmer's "philosophical zombies". It's a naive view that underestimates the nature of human consciousness.
No. People prefer to present an image as opposed to admitting what we are. Why is this surprising for you? Jesus accused the Pharisees of hypocrisy because they had become creatures of image who did not feel and experience what they said or how they acted in public. They were zombies trying to appear alive.
I am perfectly happy exchanging views with theists and, aside from you, can have a relaxed sharing and comparing of ideas. As it is, you STILL think that it's your ideas that bother others when the problem is simply your aggressive personality. Stop being aggressive and carrying on as though you are The Great King Poop speaking down to his unworthy subjects and you'll find people being a whole lot more receptive to you.
Why would you have trouble with a theist?
A theist believes there is a God who made and governs all creation; but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation.


You will just claim that your god, the Great Beast, is bigger than their god. Nothing else to argue about.

What appears to you as an aggressive personality is my recognition of levels of reality and the relativity and scale of being that comprises these levels of reality.

You are apparently unaware of what “being” is. It is more than just being alive or dead. Human being is the same. It isn’t a matter of being alive or dead. You are unaware of both the relativity and scale of human being. The concept is offensive for you and you react to it. You don’t appreciate the value of the message so must condemn the messenger.

Your condemnation of the message is shared by many secularists including those in education who express their ignorance through secular intolerance
Nicolae Tanase: Prof. Needleman, what is the meaning of life?

Jacob Needleman: The dramatic effects of the accelerating advance of technology, for all the material promise they offer the world (along with the dangers, of course) are but the most recent wave in a civilization that, without recognizing what it was doing, has placed the satisfaction of desire above the cultivation of being.

The deep meaning of many rules of conduct and moral principles of the past — so many of which have been abandoned without our understanding their real roots in human nature — involved the cultivation and development of the uniquely human power of attention, its action in the body, heart and mind of man.
Those like you and F4 have no idea what human being is so naturally no idea how and why to cultivate it. The secular answer is indoctrination which they call education for the outer man. Without any appreciation for the reality of human “being” you cannot understand how the narrow-mindedness of secular indoctrination leads to spirit killing. The fact that I realize it and am wiling to discuss it is seen as looking down on people. If we are asleep in Plato’s cave unaware of what we are in comparison to the potential for human “being” it is a very insulting revelation to those with the normal modern belief in the superiority of the Great Beast and all its supporters
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Harbal
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:35 pm What are these unique observations many have verified
In what sense can an observation be unique if it has been verified by many?
However in the process the essence of religion has been thrown out with the fallacies.
I think that's known as serendipity: a happy accident. :)
Jesus accused the Pharisees of hypocrisy
And he was right, most religious people are hypocrites.
Why would you have trouble with a theist?
I don't know what Greta's answer to that is but mine would be because they are a pin in the arse.
You will just claim that your god, the Great Beast,
No one mentions the Great Beast apart from you, it isn't our God, it's your Devil. :twisted:
What appears to you as an aggressive personality is my recognition of levels of reality and the relativity and scale of being that comprises these levels of reality.
Then perhaps you should un-recognise these things and stop behaving like a petulant little boy who can't have any sweeties.
You don’t appreciate the value of the message so must condemn the messenger.
I think the condemnation is more to do with the stupidity of the messenger, rather than a lack of appreciation of the message.
The deep meaning of many rules of conduct and moral principles of the past — so many of which have been abandoned without our understanding their real roots in human nature — involved the cultivation and development of the uniquely human power of attention, its action in the body, heart and mind of man.
Which rules and moral principles?
Those like you and F4 have no idea what human being is so naturally no idea how and why to cultivate it.
And end up with a World full of people like you? :(
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

Fooloso4
Indeed, mistaking one’s own limited views for the truth is a fatal flaw if one hopes to engage in philosophical discussion. The problem is compounded when one then accuses others of rejecting philosophy because they reject these misguided views, and is compounded yet further when one’s view of philosophical history is distorted by an attempt to make what little is known of it conform to one’s views rather than learn from it.
We are either in Plato’s cave, the burning house of Buddhism, or the darkness of the world in Christianity or we are not. Either the collective being of cave life or a lack of education is responsible for the human condition manifesting as the atrocities within the world. Those like F4 are secularists who believe the problem is lack of secular education. Those like me assert it is the denial of the fallen human condition and the idolatry of the the egoistic imagination related to the fallen human condition that is responsible. Those like Greta and F4 believe the solution to the world situation is achieved through the glorification of the Beast mentality. Those like me believe the solution begins with awakening to reality of what we ARE. Those like Greta and F4 defend and further their position through expressions of secular intolerance. Those like me know the value of efforts towards awakening and shining the inner light of consciousness on the darkness of imagination.
There is an important difference between the desire to know and the desire to have answers. The latter can be an insurmountable obstacle to the former. The truth is that for those who desire answers any answer is better than no answer, and once an answer is latched on to it is protected at all costs as if protecting the truth itself.
Those like you are content to destroy the normal human questions related to eros through secular intolerance and replacing them with secular solutions serving only to add to the idolatry of your god society itself or the Great Beast, the ultimate in collective human consciousness. The inevitable result is puffed up secularists full of themselves and spiritually dead kids. They call it progress.
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Lacewing
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Re: Secular Intolerance

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Nick_A to F4 and Greta wrote: Those like you are content to destroy the normal human questions related to eros through secular intolerance and replacing them with secular solutions serving only to add to the idolatry of your god society itself or the Great Beast, the ultimate in collective human consciousness. The inevitable result is puffed up secularists full of themselves and spiritually dead kids. They call it progress.
Nick, those like you are content to spew absurd amounts of unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in as you envision the Great Beast being something other than yourself which it is not. Your nonsense is spirit-killing only for yourself because most of humankind can see so much more beyond what you've blinded yourself to in your quest to be divinely relevant which you are not. The inevitable result is that you are puffed up like a blowfish with your visions of dead and abused kids which you project onto everyone else. You are one delusional dude, and it appears that the only value in discussing anything with you (and those like you) is for the humor and practice of dealing with toxic and rabid absurdity. It's a good skill to have, even though evolution will probably eventually take care of such small, stunted deformities in thinking. For now, the best way to deal with it is for entertainment.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.

Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it. ~ Simone Weil
What is the power of secularism that enables it to glorify itself without any recognition of the harm caused by its ignorance? The power of imagination is indeed a potent force
Force is as pitiless to the man who possesses it, or thinks he does, as it is to its victims; the second it crushes, the first it intoxicates. The truth is, nobody really possesses it.” ~ Simone Weil
This quote from her essay on the Iliad is horribly true

Humanity is content to sacrifice its conscious potential in service to the fickleness of force and glorify this sacrifice as education. Even the simple beginnings of conscious opposition to the whims of blind force are opposed by egoistic secularism or secular religious fundamentalism assuming itself above this slavery and is intolerant of all that reveals it. Even the simple solution of conscious attention will be rejected in practice after a few feel good Oprahisms

https://excellencereporter.com/2016/01/ ... uman-life/
Nicolae Tanase: Prof. Needleman, what is the meaning of life?

Jacob Needleman: The dramatic effects of the accelerating advance of technology, for all the material promise they offer the world (along with the dangers, of course) are but the most recent wave in a civilization that, without recognizing what it was doing, has placed the satisfaction of desire above the cultivation of being.

The deep meaning of many rules of conduct and moral principles of the past — so many of which have been abandoned without our understanding their real roots in human nature — involved the cultivation and development of the uniquely human power of attention, its action in the body, heart and mind of man.

To be present, truly present, is to have conscious attention. This capacity is the key to what it means to be human. It is the key to the meaning of human life itself. Without conscious presence there can be no real, enduring love, compassion, will or wisdom, or justice in the world.

It is a metaphysical fact that the being of man is diminishing. In the world as in oneself, the meaning of life is vanishing because we have lost the practice of consciously inhabiting our life, the practice of conscious attention to ourselves as we go about our lives.
What does secularism and its one leveled existence appreciate about human “being.”? It believes in directed attention which is its technique for indoctrination for some reason called education. Conscious attention reveals the Great Beast for what it is – the unfortunate result of the collective human condition. Secular intolerance will oppose this revelation in favor of its glorified opinion of itself. This is truly worth opposing That is why it will only be practiced by a minority willing and able to know thyself, to have the experience of oneself, and profit from the results as the collective being of Man continues to diminish.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

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Lacewing wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:12 pm
Nick_A to F4 and Greta wrote: Those like you are content to destroy the normal human questions related to eros through secular intolerance and replacing them with secular solutions serving only to add to the idolatry of your god society itself or the Great Beast, the ultimate in collective human consciousness. The inevitable result is puffed up secularists full of themselves and spiritually dead kids. They call it progress.
Nick, those like you are content to spew absurd amounts of unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in as you envision the Great Beast being something other than yourself which it is not. Your nonsense is spirit-killing only for yourself because most of humankind can see so much more beyond what you've blinded yourself to in your quest to be divinely relevant which you are not. The inevitable result is that you are puffed up like a blowfish with your visions of dead and abused kids which you project onto everyone else. You are one delusional dude, and it appears that the only value in discussing anything with you (and those like you) is for the humor and practice of dealing with toxic and rabid absurdity. It's a good skill to have, even though evolution will probably eventually take care of such small, stunted deformities in thinking. For now, the best way to deal with it is for entertainment.
A superb expression of secular intolerance!
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Harbal
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:23 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:12 pm
Nick_A to F4 and Greta wrote: Those like you are content to destroy the normal human questions related to eros through secular intolerance and replacing them with secular solutions serving only to add to the idolatry of your god society itself or the Great Beast, the ultimate in collective human consciousness. The inevitable result is puffed up secularists full of themselves and spiritually dead kids. They call it progress.
Nick, those like you are content to spew absurd amounts of unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in as you envision the Great Beast being something other than yourself which it is not. Your nonsense is spirit-killing only for yourself because most of humankind can see so much more beyond what you've blinded yourself to in your quest to be divinely relevant which you are not. The inevitable result is that you are puffed up like a blowfish with your visions of dead and abused kids which you project onto everyone else. You are one delusional dude, and it appears that the only value in discussing anything with you (and those like you) is for the humor and practice of dealing with toxic and rabid absurdity. It's a good skill to have, even though evolution will probably eventually take care of such small, stunted deformities in thinking. For now, the best way to deal with it is for entertainment.
A superb expression
Indeed.
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Lacewing
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:23 pm A superb expression of secular intolerance!
Your comment is an excellent example of the rabid delusional mentality that comes from unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in with your Great Beast projections and visions of spiritless dead children! :lol: There can be no clarity with all of your funk in the way, Nick. But you LOVE your precious funk, don't you! It's so Precioussss!
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by fooloso4 »

Lacewing:
Nick, those like you are content to spew absurd amounts of unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in as you envision the Great Beast being something other than yourself which it is not. Your nonsense is spirit-killing only for yourself because most of humankind can see so much more beyond what you've blinded yourself to in your quest to be divinely relevant which you are not. The inevitable result is that you are puffed up like a blowfish with your visions of dead and abused kids which you project onto everyone else. You are one delusional dude, and it appears that the only value in discussing anything with you (and those like you) is for the humor and practice of dealing with toxic and rabid absurdity. It's a good skill to have, even though evolution will probably eventually take care of such small, stunted deformities in thinking. For now, the best way to deal with it is for entertainment.
I agree, a superb expression indeed. Nicky pretends that it is about secular intolerance but the real issue is intolerance of his false piety, which he has a compulsive and insatiable need to put on display. Does he fool himself? I don’t know. What is clear after hundreds and hundreds of posts is that he does not fool anyone else. And yet he persists cycling through the same quotes and same claims and same rants over and over again.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:47 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:23 pm A superb expression of secular intolerance!
Your comment is an excellent example of the rabid delusional mentality that comes from unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in with your Great Beast projections and visions of spiritless dead children! :lol: There can be no clarity with all of your funk in the way, Nick. But you LOVE your precious funk, don't you! It's so Precioussss!
"We cannot live in a world that is interpreted for us by others. An interpreted world is not a home. Part of the terror is to take back our own listening. To use our own voice. To see our own light." —Hildegard of Bingen, "Selected Writings," (Penguin Classics, 2001).
Kids are born with the need to be real. Around the age of five or six they begin developing a personality, an image, to relate to the external world around them. The kid creates an interpreted world to replace what their heart yearns for. They sacrifice their ears and their voice to placate the image which slowly but surely lives their life for them. Secularism and its skilled methods for spirit killing does its best destroy the essence the child was born with and often succeeds. If a child survives this attack and matures they must face all the fears associated with taking their lives back, Secularists are proud of their victory and call it progressive. Sick stuff.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

fooloso4 wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:08 am Lacewing:
Nick, those like you are content to spew absurd amounts of unevolved density born from the dark cave you fester in as you envision the Great Beast being something other than yourself which it is not. Your nonsense is spirit-killing only for yourself because most of humankind can see so much more beyond what you've blinded yourself to in your quest to be divinely relevant which you are not. The inevitable result is that you are puffed up like a blowfish with your visions of dead and abused kids which you project onto everyone else. You are one delusional dude, and it appears that the only value in discussing anything with you (and those like you) is for the humor and practice of dealing with toxic and rabid absurdity. It's a good skill to have, even though evolution will probably eventually take care of such small, stunted deformities in thinking. For now, the best way to deal with it is for entertainment.
I agree, a superb expression indeed. Nicky pretends that it is about secular intolerance but the real issue is intolerance of his false piety, which he has a compulsive and insatiable need to put on display. Does he fool himself? I don’t know. What is clear after hundreds and hundreds of posts is that he does not fool anyone else. And yet he persists cycling through the same quotes and same claims and same rants over and over again.
Translation. If I oppose the harm of the dominance of secularism it is false piety. The same was said about Jesus and Socrates Their false piety had adverse effects on the good people around them indoctrinated into the supremacy of the Great Beast so had to be eliminated. Thank goodness I am far below their level. I would have been found out and boiled in oil by this time as a most impressive display of secular intolerance.
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Lacewing
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:26 am Kids are born with the need to be real. Around the age of five or six they begin developing a personality, an image, to relate to the external world around them. The kid creates an interpreted world to replace what their heart yearns for. They sacrifice their ears and their voice to placate the image which slowly but surely lives their life for them. Secularism and its skilled methods for spirit killing does its best destroy the essence the child was born with and often succeeds. If a child survives this attack and matures they must face all the fears associated with taking their lives back, Secularists are proud of their victory and call it progressive. Sick stuff.
Did you have some traumatic experience as a child, and is that why you are so bitterly obsessed with defining children and ranting against those you perceive as threats? When I was a child, I would not want you protecting me or influencing me because even then I would have perceived that you are off your nut. Spirits are strong and wise regardless of human form/age. You speak for children as if none of us know what its like. That's really idiotic.
"We cannot live in a world that is interpreted for us by others. An interpreted world is not a home. Part of the terror is to take back our own listening. To use our own voice. To see our own light." —Hildegard of Bingen, "Selected Writings," (Penguin Classics, 2001).
So stop interpreting the world for everyone else, Nick. You're projecting your own funk.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Arising_uk »

Nick_A wrote:...
Do you respect those who feel that life and especially human life has an objective meaning and purpose ...
If they do something that deserves respect sure but just for holding such a view no.
or are they just blind dreamers who get in the way of a good time and sometimes make us think about things which annoy us so should just be ridiculed as the fools they are?
Are you saying such people are necessarily killjoy puritans?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Arising_uk »

Lacewing wrote:... that you are off your nut. ...
:lol: Clearly British. :)
Dubious
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Dubious »

Dubious---> Why “by accident”? It’s more logical to conclude the universe was the result of a process both before and after it’s creation which has nothing to do with any “intent or purpose” as we normally define it. It's extreme hubris to think that in not giving it a personal context it must default to an accident!
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmYou’ve lost me here. Are you suggesting that the universe is a process created by a process? If so, what is this process?
What I meant was simply a process unknown to us and likely to remain so forever. The point was there being no intent or purpose to it...certainly not by any terms defined by us.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmAs I understand it, the process of universal existence is governed by universal laws and consciousness which can use these laws. We experience the results of the process of universal existence by law, conscious intent, or by accident which is the result of universal laws interacting without the conscious intent of a result.

The lawful universe is a machine. A car is a machine for us. A car serves its maker and the lawful universe serves the need of its source. Mechanics repair a car while the demiurge tinker with the universe.
It’s not how I imagine it. However anyone can think of it in whatever way seems justifiable to them. It is what it is with no reference to the qualities conscious beings ascribe to it. The best humans or suchlike creatures can do is to translate it into their own unique metaphors. Everything we don’t know is subject to imagination.

Without any inclusion of “divine artisans”, demiurge for me denotes that which was meant to happen or forced to happen, again without any human ascriptions of intent or purpose.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmValues for us are emotional devolved interpretations of what Plato called “forms.” Universal objective justice is an expression of universal law while human conceptions of justice are a combination of knowledge we were born with and the many ways they were interpreted over time for pragmatic purposes.
What Plato called “forms” are outlines of reality which the mind creates to make it perceivable to itself. There’s nothing otherwise particularly universal about them. They are variables to be filled with a specific kind of value in which the “object” is made to fit the mental paradigm. It may sound paradoxical but it was through the objective "instances" of the Form concept which created the Platonic Forms from which the so-called "instances" derived.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmAre you familiar with the idea that “Man is a microcosm”?
...a very old idea. I couldn’t avoid it if I tried...not that I want to!
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmThis means that Man is a mini universe and constructed just as the great cosmos. If true efforts to consciously impartially “know thyself” without including the preconceptions you refer to can reveal the truth behind theory.
I find this to be a total misconception! Calling ourselves a microcosm just because someone decided on that description long ago does not by any stretch imply that we are “constructed just as the great cosmos”. This is an inference between two conditions with a void in-between. It doesn’t connect! You can’t create a universe from human DNA...in a manner of speaking!

You will never know the truth; it's off-limits. As already mentioned, if we can’t make ourselves immanent in the universe, which means knowing how to create one, we are stuck with theories forever.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmYou are assuming that value is measured by results. This is how we are normally conditioned to believe. As I understand it, universal meaning and purpose takes place during the process of existence rather than the result.
…..Value is measured by whatever we experience as meaningful. Obviously you are convinced of the truth of what you find meaningful at THIS time. However long it takes, those values will change but only if you’re willing to scrutinize what you currently accept as objective truth. You’re not the only one who would gradually and organically have reversed themselves in successive years!

It’s a common belief, which intelligence itself defaults to, that given its abilities, some supreme agency commands it to accept what amounts to purpose and intent. That agency exists, though far less supreme, originating in us as the very Leitmotiv upon which intelligence grounds itself.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pmDid you see the movie Groundhog day? In it our hero experienced eternal recurrence until he became able to consciously witness a day rather than egoistically reacting to it. Objective meaning and purpose was experienced through conscious witnessing. As long as our hero kept blindly reacting as an expression of “results” everything remained the same. Can Man escape the wheel of samsara through conscious awakening for the few making the efforts to do so? I hope so. If not the Ways are useless.
I haven’t seen Groundhog Day but thanks for mentioning it. Whether as a movie or some other kind of fiction, they make us think and analyze the probability of such events. The purpose here is think upon the events encountered, a step beyond mere entertainment, without coming to the conclusion that it must be true.
Last edited by Dubious on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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