Is there anything wrong with scientism?

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A_Seagull
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by A_Seagull »

thedoc wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
thedoc wrote:The use of the scientific method to discover information about the material world is quite good. To regard it as the end all and be all of possible knowledge is very dangerous. Science is just one tool in the quest for knowledge. To try to turn the scientific method into a religion is an incorrect use of the method, and should be discouraged.
All religions should be discouraged.
Yes, if they attempt to give physical information about the physical world, but if they are giving information about spiritual matters, that is different.
There is no information about the spiritual world, only lies.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:There is no such thing as scientism either. It's just a pejorative like you choosing to apply "worship" to the non-religious.
Ah. You deny the relevance of the OP question. Gottit.

Thank you for your opinion. Now we have it. :D
The point being that no person who accept the label Scientistic, of themselves, whilst humanists and atheists make a point of not being religious by not worshiping.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

thedoc wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
thedoc wrote:The use of the scientific method to discover information about the material world is quite good. To regard it as the end all and be all of possible knowledge is very dangerous. Science is just one tool in the quest for knowledge. To try to turn the scientific method into a religion is an incorrect use of the method, and should be discouraged.
All religions should be discouraged.
Yes, if they attempt to give physical information about the physical world, but if they are giving information about spiritual matters, that is different.
You mean they are okay as long as they are making up shit?
surreptitious57
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by surreptitious57 »

thedoc wrote:
Science is just one tool in the quest for knowledge
That may very well be true but it is also the best one
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by A_Seagull »

surreptitious57 wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Science is just one tool in the quest for knowledge
That may very well be true but it is also the best one
It's certainly way better than Kantism, which is a doctrine that many people seem to follow.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Arising_uk »

A_Seagull wrote:It's certainly way better than Kantism, which is a doctrine that many people seem to follow.
How so? As I'm at a bit of a loss as to why it would be in opposition?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

A_Seagull wrote:One definition according to Wikipedia is:" In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth."
I agree with the Wikipedia entry. An outdated belief, quite common among freethinkers and positivists, and in the latter, comes along with another belief that philosophical and scientific endeavors are completely different domains, not related to each other.
A_Seagull wrote:This seems quite reasonable to me. There doesn't seem to be any other process which allows the extraction of truth about the real world
Philosophy is at the base of science. Science is mostly related to knowledge gained from experience. If science gets us somewhere, is not only by the power of its own induction methods.
A_Seagull wrote:And yet, many philosophers would seem to hold a form of derision for scientism I suspect that this is a result of an irrational fear of the power of scientism rather than any rational justification.

What do you think?
To be fair, advocates of scientism seem to get amused often by embarking in the task of deriding philosophy. It's a favorite subject for the likes of Neil DeGrasse Tysson and Stephen Hawking.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by A_Seagull »

Conde Lucanor wrote:[Philosophy is at the base of science. Science is mostly related to knowledge gained from experience. If science gets us somewhere, is not only by the power of its own induction methods.
.

Or is science (or the scientific method) at the base of philosophy? If science doesn't get us places under its own power, then what additional power does it need?

The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philso0phy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
Londoner
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Londoner »

A_Seagull wrote: The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philosophy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
If you have picked a specific method then you will have first chosen to disregard all the other possible methods, so what follows from your choice is still only an opinion.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by A_Seagull »

Londoner wrote:
A_Seagull wrote: The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philosophy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
If you have picked a specific method then you will have first chosen to disregard all the other possible methods, so what follows from your choice is still only an opinion.
But at least it would be an opinion whose process of inference can be reproduced by another. And in any case, perhaps there is only one method.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

A_Seagull wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:[Philosophy is at the base of science. Science is mostly related to knowledge gained from experience. If science gets us somewhere, is not only by the power of its own induction methods.
.

Or is science (or the scientific method) at the base of philosophy? If science doesn't get us places under its own power, then what additional power does it need?

The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philso0phy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
Science has an epistemology. It derives its methods from philosophical analysis of what its object of inquiry is, how knowledge can be obtained, which are its limits, and even what is worth investigating and for what purposes.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by A_Seagull »

Conde Lucanor wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:[Philosophy is at the base of science. Science is mostly related to knowledge gained from experience. If science gets us somewhere, is not only by the power of its own induction methods.
.

Or is science (or the scientific method) at the base of philosophy? If science doesn't get us places under its own power, then what additional power does it need?

The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philso0phy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
Science has an epistemology. It derives its methods from philosophical analysis of what its object of inquiry is, how knowledge can be obtained, which are its limits, and even what is worth investigating and for what purposes.
Not at all!! Philosophical analysis is merely a description of the scientific method. The scientific method existed long before its philosophical description.

And while we are on the subject.... what other methods of inference do you consider meritous? And what is their philosophical analysis?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

A_Seagull wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:

Or is science (or the scientific method) at the base of philosophy? If science doesn't get us places under its own power, then what additional power does it need?

The thing is that science does have a specific method for making inferences, whereas the rest of philso0phy is sadly lacking in methods of inference. And without specific methods of inference, it becomes mere opinion.
Science has an epistemology. It derives its methods from philosophical analysis of what its object of inquiry is, how knowledge can be obtained, which are its limits, and even what is worth investigating and for what purposes.
Not at all!! Philosophical analysis is merely a description of the scientific method. The scientific method existed long before its philosophical description.
I must assume you regard the term "scientific method" not as it is understood since the emergence of modern science, that is, the structured, systematized empirical testing of hypothesis, from which causal laws are inferred, but as any empirical research. If you want to date it back to Aristotle, I won't agree, but it's OK. But even so it would be quite adventurous to say that empirical science preceded philosophy. Before natural science was "officially" science, it was natural philosophy.
thedoc
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by thedoc »

Conde Lucanor wrote: I must assume you regard the term "scientific method" not as it is understood since the emergence of modern science, that is, the structured, systematized empirical testing of hypothesis, from which causal laws are inferred, but as any empirical research. If you want to date it back to Aristotle, I won't agree, but it's OK. But even so it would be quite adventurous to say that empirical science preceded philosophy. Before natural science was "officially" science, it was natural philosophy.
Actually the scientific method of testing Hypothesis predated Aristotle by quite a bit, but it went by a different name. If it hadn't been for religious dogma, science could have been advanced at least 2,000 years more than it is now. Great care must be taken that religion doesn't stifle scientific progress even now.
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HexHammer
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Re: Is there anything wrong with scientism?

Post by HexHammer »

A_Seagull wrote:One definition according to Wikipedia is:" In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth."

This seems quite reasonable to me. There doesn't seem to be any other process which allows the extraction of truth about the real world

And yet, many philosophers would seem to hold a form of derision for scientism I suspect that this is a result of an irrational fear of the power of scientism rather than any rational justification.

What do you think?
Because many are "Rain Men" aka high functional retards that doesn't undestand the concept of science and say that science can be faulty too thus can't comprehend the simple fact that 99% of the other results are true, and one can't uncover truth by philosophy so they stoop philosophy down to mere cozy chat which is a waste of time.
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