Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

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Michael James
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Michael James »

Hobbes’ Choice wrote:

“We might have social media, medicine to make us live to 85, but this does not mean the sum of human fulfilment is greater that it was 100 years ago....”

I agree. I think that the prerequisites for happiness and fulfilment are the meeting of basic material needs – food, fresh water, shelter, clothing (if you don’t live in the tropics) – a sense of security from persecution and violent death, and companionship. So long as you have all these things, you have a chance at being happy (or at least content, which is perhaps a better word to use). I’m certain that human nature isn’t based on utility maximization (the accumulation of property and trinkets), though. Rich people are probably happier than the rest of a population on average, for they never have to fret over satisfying their material needs and they hold a privileged position in society, with many in the lower classes either secretly or overtly envying their status and lifestyles. But there are many people who have achieved peace of mind and inner enlightenment with only a minuscule fraction of a rich person’s wealth. Some of these low-maintenance contented people find a rich person’s incessant struggles to turn a big pile of money into an ever bigger pile of money rather amusing. Also, perhaps, they see it as a tragic waste of time and resources.
Michael James
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Michael James »

Greta wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
Greta wrote:There's two possibilities:

- we continue progressing and most people die

- we stop progressing and everyone dies.
Why would everyone die if progress is neutralized?
The Sun is heating up. In less than a billion years, possibly much less, the Earth's surface will be uninhabitable, certainly for large organisms. If our descendants (if still present), are not highly technologically capable then none will survive, aside from perhaps some primitive cave-dwelling existence.

Eventually whatever is left of humanity needs to eventually leave planet Earth for worlds less catastrophically affected by our star as it ages.
Why do humans have to survive beyond the destruction of Earth? In truth, humans are going to go extinct long before the Sun blows up in a billion years or less. Indeed, if history is any guide, humans will go extinct long before all life on Earth goes extinct, since there’s no reason to believe humans have an exulted place in the cosmos. The universe will go on just fine without us.

The more interesting question, from my perspective, is whether humans will go extinct ignominiously, due to, say, global thermonuclear war or the catastrophic consequences of anthropocentric climate change, or due to a cataclysmic event beyond our control, such as a giant asteroid slamming into Earth a few thousand years from now. If humans cause their own extinction, then we are the idiot savants of the animal kingdom. The post-mortem for humankind will be: very clever in some respects, yes, but overall extremely stupid. The species that often thought it was superior to all other species will become the only species to commit species-wide suicide. The irony!
Michael James
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Michael James »

WendyDarling wrote:As a proponent of my God, who has taught me that there are spiritual truths with humanitarian principles to be found in many religions, alternative methodologies to investigating the natural world, and an understanding that we've been blessed with this playground named Earth for eons to better understand our Creator, modern industrialized, scientifically theorized progress is an illusion for the hard limits you've touched on and Mankind must finally settle down to the difficult task of understanding himself. Should Mankind keep ignoring those hard limits, like Mankind does his own internal limits in every respect, then an apocalypse is inevitable.

A very well written piece you've presented that I haven't the skill with which to do justice. :D
Thanks, Wendy, I'm glad to hear you liked it.
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Greta
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Greta »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greta wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
Why would everyone die if progress is neutralized?
The Sun is heating up. In less than a billion years, possibly much less, the Earth's surface will be uninhabitable, certainly for large organisms. If our descendants (if still present), are not highly technologically capable then none will survive, aside from perhaps some primitive cave-dwelling existence.

Eventually whatever is left of humanity needs to eventually leave planet Earth for worlds less catastrophically affected by our star as it ages.
In a billion years "we" won't be human. SO who cares.
I do. I'd like to think that life (or its successor) can build up to a way of being that comes much closer to our ideals than we have been able to manage so far.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greta wrote: The Sun is heating up. In less than a billion years, possibly much less, the Earth's surface will be uninhabitable, certainly for large organisms. If our descendants (if still present), are not highly technologically capable then none will survive, aside from perhaps some primitive cave-dwelling existence.

Eventually whatever is left of humanity needs to eventually leave planet Earth for worlds less catastrophically affected by our star as it ages.
In a billion years "we" won't be human. SO who cares.
I do. I'd like to think that life (or its successor) can build up to a way of being that comes much closer to our ideals than we have been able to manage so far.
It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
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Greta
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Greta »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
In a billion years "we" won't be human. SO who cares.
I do. I'd like to think that life (or its successor) can build up to a way of being that comes much closer to our ideals than we have been able to manage so far.
It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
Yes, an absurd fantasy, just like dreams of a person stepping on the moon. Impossible.

Some other great fantasies and absurdities down through history, completely dismissed by knowledgeable people of the day: a non-flat Earth, heliocentric systems, galaxies, landing a craft on a comet, atoms, exoplanets, evolution ...
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Arising_uk
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Arising_uk »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:... It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
Not so, if not for the test-ban treaty we'd(America) would most likely have been around Jupiter by now.
Melchior
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Melchior »

Arising_uk wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Progress in technology isn't a myth. But social progress is.
How so? We don't have slavery any more, we don't send the kids into the factories, women don't have two choices(I accept that this was not so black and white) marriage or prostitution, women can get an education and work, men have the vote, homosexuality is not a criminal act, holidays from work are considered a right, etc. Although I accept that this is far from the case world-wide it still seems to be social progress?
You must be joking.
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Greta
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Greta »

No, AUK is not "joking", he is simply observing some of the ethical movements in history in a clear-minded way.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Arising_uk »

Melchior wrote:You must be joking.
What do you find funny?
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greta wrote: I do. I'd like to think that life (or its successor) can build up to a way of being that comes much closer to our ideals than we have been able to manage so far.
It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
Yes, an absurd fantasy, just like dreams of a person stepping on the moon. Impossible.

Some other great fantasies and absurdities down through history, completely dismissed by knowledgeable people of the day: a non-flat Earth, heliocentric systems, galaxies, landing a craft on a comet, atoms, exoplanets, evolution ...
No nothing like that at all. The moon is only 230,000 miles away.
Do you admit that there are some things that are impossible? Walking on the sun for example?

Finding and colonising a suitable planet outside the solar system is absurd. We are evolved to life on the earth; it has everything we need - right here. It is next to impossible that another such planet anywhere reachable in the universe exists whose biome would not be immediately hostile to human life; or whose atmosphere would be breathable; at reasonable temperatures.
Why would we seek such a place when it would take more than a lifetime to reach it, and would take more energy and resources than an entire country to reach it?
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Arising_uk wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:... It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
Not so, if not for the test-ban treaty we'd(America) would most likely have been around Jupiter by now.
Rubbish. There is nothing around Jupiter we need, or want.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Arising_uk »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Rubbish. There is nothing around Jupiter we need, or want.
I wasn't saying we need anything from there, just how far we(America) might have got by now.
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Greta
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Greta »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
It is highly unlikely that life will ever leave the earth let alone the solar system.
It's just a sci-fi fantasy.
Yes, an absurd fantasy, just like dreams of a person stepping on the moon. Impossible.

Some other great fantasies and absurdities down through history, completely dismissed by knowledgeable people of the day: a non-flat Earth, heliocentric systems, galaxies, landing a craft on a comet, atoms, exoplanets, evolution ...
No nothing like that at all. The moon is only 230,000 miles away.
Do you admit that there are some things that are impossible? Walking on the sun for example?

Finding and colonising a suitable planet outside the solar system is absurd. We are evolved to life on the earth; it has everything we need - right here. It is next to impossible that another such planet anywhere reachable in the universe exists whose biome would not be immediately hostile to human life; or whose atmosphere would be breathable; at reasonable temperatures.
Why would we seek such a place when it would take more than a lifetime to reach it, and would take more energy and resources than an entire country to reach it?
"Only 230,000 miles away" (384,000 kms) - that is a hell of a long way for a species that was locked to the Earth's surface for most of its existence. A Moon landing at the time of HG Wells was pure fantasy, an impossibility.

I think it likely that there will be some colonisation of other bodies in the solar system by either genetically modified humans or AI (or a blend). You don't think it possible. Many experts are split on this too.

Obviously a breakthrough would needed to be made for a spacecraft to reach other planetary systems from Earth in any kind of timely manner. Another unknowable situation. Autonomous AI would seem the best prospect for long haul space travel at this stage, with a pre-existing directive of panspermia.

I would personally like to see Earth's story continued by whatever humans become in the future or their creations, to continue progressing.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Whither Progress?: Is Progress an Insupportable Myth?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Arising_uk wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Rubbish. There is nothing around Jupiter we need, or want.
I wasn't saying we need anything from there, just how far we(America) might have got by now.
But the speculation requires that it meets that criterion.
Seriously I doubt we will ever have any interest in making a manned mission to Mars. And the astronauts would be fools to go.
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