[Questioning Everything]

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:How can a person not have beliefs? It's impossible not to hold any.
Depends on how you define belief.

I choose to make a pragmatic distinction between knowledge and belief.
I take belief to the a thing taken as true, without rigorous support.
And I take knowledge as a thing taken as true with rigorous support.

For me, I don't give a rat's arse for belief, and have no respect for another's belief when it is used as if it were the same as knowledge.

I don't believe.

However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
Yes, that was in reference to ken's statement. He goes beyond belief based on knowledge. That's just silly.
He takes his odd beliefs as if they were knowledge; that is delusion.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ken wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:The simple fact that this conversation can happen between ken and surreptitious means that ken can't be right.

Knowledge cannot be the preserve of a single subject, but can only be calculated by the collective collaboration between subjects. Surreptitious allows for this whilst ken is blind to the simplicity of that truth and insists that the meanderings of his own mind are truthful regardless of the world unfolding around him.

ken is stuck in the solipsism of his embryonic mind, and the only thing that can change his mind is an abortion in to the world of complexity.
So, I say what could be possible, whereas I am being told forever more it is impossible, and I can not be right..
What is nonsense is not possible.
What is nonsense to hobbs' choice is not necessarily nonsense to others.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Dalek Prime wrote:How can a person not have beliefs? It's impossible not to hold any.
Does a new born baby have beliefs?

If a new born baby is a person, and they do not have beliefs, then that means it is possible to not hold beliefs.

If however you say a new born baby can have beliefs, then what are they exactly?

Also, provide some of the beliefs you have and I will show you how exactly you CAN not hold them.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
After all the discussions we have you still have NOT heard a single thing I have said. Do you actually read what I write, or do you just read a few words and then assume the rest? I have NEVER said I believe nothing. I have NEVER even alluded to any thing like that. That is just so totally and utterly ridiculous a remark that you just made I will enjoy that others will see it.

If the last part of your sentence is in relation to the first half, then I will leave the ridiculousness of it here.

But if the last half of your sentence is in relation to something else, then provide what it is that you actually believe that I take to be true, which to you is so obviously false that it is palpable, to you also. If you do not provide anything, then I have absolutely no idea of what you are alluding to.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

ken wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ken wrote:
So, I say what could be possible, whereas I am being told forever more it is impossible, and I can not be right..
What is nonsense is not possible.
What is nonsense to hobbs' choice is not necessarily nonsense to others.

It's nonsense to all the others on this thread but you, it seems.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

ken wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
After all the discussions we have you still have NOT heard a single thing I have said. Do you actually read what I write, or do you just read a few words and then assume the rest? I have NEVER said I believe nothing. I have NEVER even alluded to any thing like that. That is just so totally and utterly ridiculous a remark that you just made I will enjoy that others will see it.
I am perfectly happy that others see what I write. If they object, or agree with you, then I'm waiting. But try as you might to find support, there is none here on the Forum as yet. I'll not be holding my breath for that moment.

As for reading your stuff. Yes, i have trawled my way through the entire verbiage you call ideas, and me like others, find you have little to say that is not endlessly repeated. For it does not matter how many times you say a falsehood, you will only convince yourself not others.
surreptitious57
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
Can you provide an example of some thing that you allege one can not simply be chosen to unbelieved
One cannot arbitrarily choose what not to believe for belief is an article of faith and so there will be strong subjective or emotional
biases underpinning it. In order to stop believing in something those biases would first have to be acknowledged and then discarded
Belief is therefore not something which can simply be denied like you seem to think it is. Can you right now deny your belief in God
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Noax wrote:
ken wrote:If I state, "I believe the sun revolves around the earth" then this is much different from if I state, "I have gained a view that the sun revolves around the earth, but I know where I have gained this view from, which was from everyone else who believes this and says it is and must be the truth, but I actually can not prove this to be true, as well as I do not have any actual proof of this, so from the view I have now the sun revolves the earth but I will never accept nor believe that to be because if I did, then I would not remain open to that this may not actually be true, right, and/or correct." A bit long winded but I prefer to remain open then state things that close Me off to learning newer or truer things. Saying, "In my view ...", instead of "I believe ..." leaves Me far more OPEN. By removing the word "believe" and changing it with "view" changes my whole outlook. The words we use and say have far more of an effect on us than we realize, that is until we realize just how much the words we say and use actually do influence us.
You seem to have left out the general case that you don't consider the sun's procession across the sky each day a thing that needs to be believed or not.
If you have NOT noticed yet, I say there is absolutely nothing that needs to be believed or not. So, why would I mention it?

As for if the sun's procession across the sky each day or not has absolutely NOTHING at all with what I am talking about.

I was saying that, by the way some thing is stated shows just how much belief or not is being held in what is being stated.
Noax wrote: Your long winded description describes someone who has already listed the thing as something to be doubted.
Did you notice the very first three words? The first word, 'IF", especially shows what is really going on here.
Noax wrote:It is also a poor example. Belief in the orbiting sun is not something that matters.
The whole point of this belief example has nothing at all do with its truth or not. I purposely used an example of a belief that people once believed was the absolute truth but in the end was proven to be false. Although it take some years to prove what was clearly obvious. The reason it took so long was because the people were wanting to hold onto and maintain a belief, which they had already obtained. If people did not have beliefs and thus were truly open in the beginning, then the amount of time that it would have taken to expose and see the Truth would have been far, far quicker.

By the way what do you allege having a belief in exactly is something that does really matter?
Noax wrote: You assume it will be light tomorrow, and that's all you need to be fit, unless you're in charge of steering your own spacecraft to some destination, in which case you had better be knowledgeable about orbital mechanics if you expect to live. The truth makes you more fit in that case.
'You' may assume things but I do NOT. So speak for you only and do not try to speak for I.
Noax wrote:Pick an example where lies make you more fit.
Do you want Me to pick an example that suits you stance, your belief? Remember I have been asking for examples of people's beliefs so that we can delve into them, but as of yet no one else has provided any. I have neither any beliefs nor disbeliefs (in) anything so I can not provide any real examples. The very reason I provided that example, which was obviously not noticed, is because that was what the people's of one era once believed, which was obviously not true. Just the people's of this era believe things, which to Me are obviously not true. But just like the people's of yesteryear were not open to what was actual fact, because they wanted to hold onto and maintain their beliefs, they were totally unable to hear and see the Truth. This is exactly what is happening with the people's of today. The ones who have beliefs and are holding onto them and maintain those beliefs that they do then they are NOT open and thus NOT able to hear and see what the actual Truths are. Hobbs' choice is prime example of this.
Noax wrote:
Can you provide an example of some thing that you allege one can not simply be chosen to unbelieved?
Yes, but you won't believe it. You must work it out. I can say my Avatar is not yellow. Would you believe that? OK, you can choose to not believe that since it doesn't really matter. Bad example. How about choosing to believe you cannot make a decision that can benefit or hurt yourself? You can rationally believe that, but not not truly hold that belief at your core since it matters.
WHAT?

I asked you if can provide an example of some thing that YOU allege one can not simply be chosen to be unbelieved? If you can, then provide the example of where and when you do it. I want the examples of when YOU do it. Obviously if you are stating that this is what happens then you MUST have examples of when YOU do it. Or, are you suggesting that YOU do not do but only others do it?
Noax wrote:
Noax wrote:I hold the biases. Why would I want otherwise?
But you did say you do not want to be free of biases. You said, you came to realize that you cannot be free of biases, and that you also do not want to be free of biases.
Let me clarify then. I don't want to be free of certain biases, despite knowing they are wrong.
Yes I know. I understood that the first time.

And, I will ask again, what are the exact biases that YOU have that you do not want to be free of?


Noax wrote:
Where are, and what are, the biases?
What still functions without those biases? I'm asking what you are. You will give a biased answer.
I asked you to provide the biases YOU have, yet for some reason you wrote this.

If you can provide biases that YOU have, then please provide them. Because I do not have a clue what biases you are referring to if you to not clarify what they are exactly.

By the way if I were to answer your question regarding, "What 'you' are", then the answer I will give is a view I have, which may or may not be right, or be partly right. But it will NOT be biased in any way, shape, nor form.
Noax wrote:
What does 'biases' mean to you?
In this context, beliefs that I hold without even knowing that they are even beliefs, or that I hold despite rational demonstration of inconsistency. So not counting say political biases where I think this side is more correct than the other one. I'm talking about beliefs that are in your DNA and not just learned.
I asked you what does 'biases' mean to you, and you for some reason wrote this.

The question again is what does 'biases' mean to you.

I think the reason we are continuing this discussion this way might be because we have two completely different views on what 'biases' means.

Until I know what you mean by 'biases' I do not know how to respond to you correctly.

As for the beliefs within DNA well I have mentioned that. But to add more light to it, there are four built in needs within the human bodies DNA. These four needs are what is needed for human being to live and survive. These are the only four things that human beings as a whole NEED to live and survive. They can not be gotten rid of, obviously. I also would not class them as beliefs. To Me, beliefs are learned knowledge that is taken to the point of not being able to challenged nor changed.

Noax wrote:
But all adult human beings DO HAVE a choice in what they think and feel. So their is a choice whether to believe or not to believe.
Sounds like a statement not open to debate. Are you biased about this assertion or might you consider being wrong about it?
Of course I consider it could be wrong. I have stipulated many times previously that absolutely everything I write is open to being wrong. Always have and always will be.

If you can provide any examples to show how adult human beings do NOT have a choice in what they think and feel, then I will consider it. But remember I have already stipulated the choice of what to think is limited to only those thoughts that have already been gained and stored within the brain.
Noax wrote:
Okay so we agree an obtained belief, is pretty trivial and does not really matter. Do you agree that these ones can be gotten rid of completely?
One can recognize them, but still hold them.
Of course they can. I am the One suggesting people get rid of the beliefs that they hold onto dearly and want to maintain. So, obviously beliefs can still be held onto.
Noax wrote: Be open to alternative but still have a preferred opinion. I don't think that is getting rid of them. Would reduce you to being an opinionless rock.
WHAT?

I have expressed countless views/opinions, which I am totally open to any and all alternatives, I have not become close to an opinionless rock yet.
Noax wrote:
HOW and WHY exactly?
See example above. If I believed I could not make a choice to benefit myself, I'd have no reason to draw breath. I'm quite programmed to want to draw breath. The rational part of me is just plain not in charge of such things.
Again you used the word 'believed'. Every time a human being says they believe, then I question them why have the belief in the first place when it is unnecessary and could in fact be totally incorrect, untrue, and false?


Noax wrote:
To Me, 'free will' is just defined as the ability to choose.
And how would that differ from un-free will?
Is that meant to be a "trick" question?

NOT having the ability to choose, would be the difference from un-free will if I had to take a guess.
Noax wrote: What is the entity doing the choosing here?
The depends. If the entity chooses to look from thoughts stored within brain first and/or only, then that entity is the person. But, if the Entity chooses to look from the Mind, which is always truly open, AND THEN use the thoughts stored within the brain for further reference, then that Entity is known by many names, some such as Spirit, Allah, God, Enlightenment, et cetera, et cetera.
Noax wrote:A lot depends on you philosophy of mind here.
At the rate we are going it will be a few years before you would be close to fully understanding what it is that I have to say about this.
Noax wrote: A simple machine has free will by your definition. A (classic example) thermostat chooses to turn on the heat when it gets cold enough. Do you envision yourself in similar terms to that example? If not, what's the difference?
Yes a person can work as simple as a machine in that it only chooses to look from a thought that has already been gained. What is even more simple is when that thought is then believed to be true, right, and correct.
Noax wrote:
To Me, it is not a question of does free will or determinism exist but that they both exist equally.
They are different views of the same thing, and they are contradictory views.
To you they might be, but they certainly are not different views of the same thing nor are they contradictory views to Me. But then again I do not have any contradictory views, anyway. To Me, free will and determinism are two different things that exist equally within human beings. But then again I do not see the same way human beings do, therefore the huge difference between I and you. Human beings make some things contradictory and also view some things that way, whereas I do not do either.
Noax wrote: It is a clue that there is a biased belief somewhere in there even if you can't identify the bias.
You will persist that I have biased beliefs "somewhere" even when you can not draw them out and put them here in front of everyone so that you could actually back up what you are trying to say. The belief YOU have that I also MUST have biased beliefs will NOT allow you to see what is actually happening here. You even go to the lengths of suggesting that I have them and I can not identify the bias. It is like YOU want Me to look for, find and identify, what is NOT there, because YOU have absolutely no hope of doing it yourself.

If as you allege they are there, then just identify them for ALL to see now.

By the way you have yet to even identify the biased beliefs that you, yourself, have, and provide the examples of them for us here so that we can look into them in more depth. Do you know WHY you continue to refuse to provide examples?

Noax wrote:
Every adult human being can choose what to think BUT they ALL are limited upon the selection to choose from. What a human being can think is pre-determined by the thoughts that already exist within the brain. So, every human being has the freedom, or the free will, to choose, but the limited choices they have to choose from determines what they can actually think, and thus can then do. What behaviors human beings do is determined by what limited thoughts that they have within them, but they certainly have the free will to choose between those choice of thoughts.
Nice description of a self driving car. Can choose, but has limited choices.
Nice assimilation also by you, I must admit, in recognizing the resemblance. Most human beings are self driven beings, not really knowing where they are heading but continually driving on aimlessly.

The difference however between human beings and self driving cars, though, is human beings have the ability to look at things from a truly open perspective, and thus have the ability to imagine, invent, plan, learn, discover, understand, and create absolute new and more things, whereas self driving cars do NOT have this ability.
Noax wrote:
Why are your biases obviously false? Is it possible that some of them could be true?
Some, not all.
So if some of them could be true, then why did you say that your biases are obviously false?
Noax wrote: That I am some thing with numeric identity that persists through time is clearly contradictory.
I do not understand this at all and do not even know what question to ask for clarity.
Noax wrote: That I find myself to be this top-of-intellectual-food-chain entity is beyond improbable.
HOW could some thing that exists be beyond improbable?

The very fact that you, and the body, are here means that the chances are far less than improbable.
Noax wrote: Why am I not a more probable blade of grass or a rock in some more ordinary place?
There is no other place than the Universe, so being here is being in the most ordinary of places possible.
Noax wrote: Clearly there are biases to discover by noting such things.
If you do not even know the biases, then how can you be so sure that they even exist?

I am still curios to know the biases you say YOU have, are false, and that you do not want to get rid of.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ken wrote:
Noax wrote:Not so easy. Removal of a word does not remove the belief. One cannot simply choose to unbelieve certain things. The choice to do so must come from the part of you holding said belief.
If I state, "I believe the sun revolves around the earth" then this is much different from if I state, "I have gained a view that the sun revolves around the earth, but I know where I have gained this view from, which was from everyone else who believes this and says it is and must be the truth, but I actually can not prove this to be true, as well as I do not have any actual proof of this, so from the view I have now the sun revolves the earth but I will never accept nor believe that to be because if I did, then I would not remain open to that this may not actually be true, right, and/or correct..
Your belief is false, obviously; the sun does not revolve around the earth. It's not even as if you can see that.
You NEVER read or comprehend what I write do you?

HOW can My belief be false when I do NOT even have a belief?
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Even if you believe what is indeed the case that it is the earth which moves; your belief in it is still useless, because belief is empty and is not required to correspond to facts.
PLEASE LISTEN to the words I say. I do NOT believe (in) nor do I disbelieve anything, therefore I have NO beliefs, whatsoever.

When will that ever be understood by YOU.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Believe what you like; knowledge takes effort.
Again, I do NOT believe (in) anything.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:How can a person not have beliefs? It's impossible not to hold any.
Depends on how you define belief.

I choose to make a pragmatic distinction between knowledge and belief.
I take belief to the a thing taken as true, without rigorous support.
And I take knowledge as a thing taken as true with rigorous support.

For me, I don't give a rat's arse for belief, and have no respect for another's belief when it is used as if it were the same as knowledge.

I don't believe.

However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
Yes, that was in reference to ken's statement. He goes beyond belief based on knowledge. That's just silly.
What is it exactly that you two believe or think I take to be true?

If this question ever gets answered, then we will be able to look at what or who is really silly here.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Depends on how you define belief.

I choose to make a pragmatic distinction between knowledge and belief.
I take belief to the a thing taken as true, without rigorous support.
And I take knowledge as a thing taken as true with rigorous support.

For me, I don't give a rat's arse for belief, and have no respect for another's belief when it is used as if it were the same as knowledge.

I don't believe.

However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
Yes, that was in reference to ken's statement. He goes beyond belief based on knowledge. That's just silly.
He takes his odd beliefs as if they were knowledge; that is delusion.
I do NOT know how many times you have to be told. I do NOT have beliefs.

NOW provide the examples of what you allege are My odd beliefs, so we can look at them for what they really are, which will inevitably just turn out to be My views, which may be or may not be right or partly right. Then, we will be able to see how much delusion is actually in My views.

But based on ALL of your last discussions with Me, you will NEVER provide anything other than attempted ridicule and mockery of Me.

To some the only way to feel big and good about themselves is to try and belittle and ridicule others.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ken wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
What is nonsense is not possible.
What is nonsense to hobbs' choice is not necessarily nonsense to others.

It's nonsense to all the others on this thread but you, it seems.
HOW could it SEEM this way to you? Have you questioned EVERYONE in this thread? Do you know what ALL others in this thread think about what I write here?

Do you really believe that what I write is nonsense to ALL the others on this thread?

Surely you can try a better way to get EVERYONE else on "your side" than just to write things you wish and believe are true.

By the way what is your view here exactly.

My view is it is better to not have, hold nor maintain any beliefs, so that you can be open to learn more and anew. And, the better way to learn more and new knowledge is to question EVERYTHING.

That question everything part I rarely ever see coming from YOU, in fact I do not recall every seeing ONE question from YOU ever. If I recall correctly you just seem to say others are WRONG, without ever clarifying any questions posed to you and without ever actually clarifying with others what their exact point of view is. That is right, you always seem to assume what is being said, and then you jump to a conclusion based on that assumption, which on most occasions I have noticed is wrong, and then you will believe the conclusions you make are wholeheartedly true, right, and/or correct, and if any person says anything contradictory to that belief you have, then you will just try to belittle them and ridicule them in front of others.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ken wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
However, as for ken, who claims to believe nothing, what he takes to be true is so obviously false it's palpable.
After all the discussions we have you still have NOT heard a single thing I have said. Do you actually read what I write, or do you just read a few words and then assume the rest? I have NEVER said I believe nothing. I have NEVER even alluded to any thing like that. That is just so totally and utterly ridiculous a remark that you just made I will enjoy that others will see it.
I am perfectly happy that others see what I write. If they object, or agree with you, then I'm waiting. But try as you might to find support, there is none here on the Forum as yet. I'll not be holding my breath for that moment.
It is NOT about objecting with anyone or agreeing with anyone. This is about how you never listen and hear what I say. Even when you to try to repeat what I say you always get it so totally wrong.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:As for reading your stuff. Yes, i have trawled my way through the entire verbiage you call ideas, and me like others, find you have little to say that is not endlessly repeated. For it does not matter how many times you say a falsehood, you will only convince yourself not others.
Can you provide just one falsehood?

You have yet to provide one so far.

Why NOT just show the falsehood you allege I say, and tell us ALL WHY it is a falsehood?

If you do not do that, then what you say could be completely false itself.
ken
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote:
ken wrote:
Can you provide an example of some thing that you allege one can not simply be chosen to unbelieved
One cannot arbitrarily choose what not to believe for belief is an article of faith and so there will be strong subjective or emotional
biases underpinning it. In order to stop believing in something those biases would first have to be acknowledged and then discarded
Belief is therefore not something which can simply be denied like you seem to think it is.
You say some things exist. I ask for some examples of these things, but NEVER receive any example. But I am the One who is expected to change My view, which from all accounts seems to be gaining more support and having more truth in it than at the onset.

If you want Me to see and understand how a belief is not something which can NOT simply be denied, then provide an example of a belief that you say fulfills this criteria, then we be able to see if it can be denied or not. Until then I have absolutely no beliefs whatsoever to work with or on, unlike you and others here HAVE.
surreptitious57 wrote: Can you right now deny your belief in God
But I do NOT believe in God, NEVER have and NEVER will.

The 'God' that is taught through ALL religions is so fanciful that it is laughable, to Me.

HOW could you have even jumped to that conclusion from everything I have written.

Listen, this is for ALL of YOU. I do NOT have a belief in anything. Please tell Me that that is understood by NOW.
surreptitious57
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Re: [Questioning Everything]

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Can you right now deny your belief in God
But I do NOT believe in God NEVER have and NEVER will

The God that is taught through ALL religions is so fanciful that it is laughable to Me

HOW could you have even jumped to that conclusion from everything I have written
You claimed that you had never been a believer in God till you started your journey

This suggests that after you started your journey you were a believer in God

But now you are claiming you are not a believer in God and never were

I am now confused and none the wiser so can you please explain
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