Free Will vs Determinism

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davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:15 pm
davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:03 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:39 pm
It's not possible due to a logical constraint, and it's not to say that the universe isn't actually pre-set. Just because we can't obtain the information doesn't mean it's not there.
The information isn't there because of quantum mechanics -- unless one wants to hold that past, present and future all exist (thesis of eternalism) In that case the information is all there, qm and all. But even in that case, for us entities stuck inside of the universe, no computer even in principle could predict the future; it could only assess probabilities of such and such happening.
Well yeah, but the quantum field producing (seemingly) random energy is another point entirely; Inability to access information doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. It's logically impossible to predict your own future, but that doesn't mean it's logically impossible to predict your own future specifically because the future isn't pre-set.
The information doesn't exist in QM until the wave function collapses. Quantum events are literally random, thought that can be predicted as probabalistic outcomes.
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Harbal
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Harbal »

davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:11 pm On a search, I can't find anything remotely resembling my saying this,
But it's possible you were thinking it and that's enough. Even if you weren't actually thinking it, you could have been hypothetically thinking it.
Oneandall
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Oneandall »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:40 am
Oneandall wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:58 am If Determinism is true, Everything moves as one. Everyone and everything is interconnected. Everything clockwork and in harmony. The opinions I have seen on this thread have been human. I think, or, you said that but i think... whereas the truth could be that there is no meaning of life. As life is a human made concept. It seems to me that you all want to find the truth, or at least defend your truth, one must first realise that there may be no truth. No meaning to anything. Scary to any human.
In other words, or which is what I'd claim, God is that which makes order out of chaos.
That-Which-Makes-Order-Out-Of -Chaos is either 1. a concept, or 2. what is the case, or 3. Both of those.

That-Which-Makes-Order-Out-of-Chaos is imaged by Genesis 1, and my favourite particular image is the spirit of God moving over the waters. I wonder if there is a good picture that .
This is not quite what I was getting at.
Determinism implies that we are no different to a molecule of water, for example. We are one large entity. The whole universe and maybe more. One could call that a god if you like.
There are mechanisms in the human brain that react to situations by cause and effect. Its very difficult to describe this process as a human brain is quite complex.
But as a simple example: If I was driving and someone braked sharply in front of me, I would brake. If I did not, I would die (no one is truly alive anyway). If my brain was wired to accelerate, I would not live. The latter type of mentality would create a human race that would not prosper. We have a human race that does prosper to a degree. Humans are born all the time but not all survive.
Out of necessity, we are still here in this form. A prosperous human society. Morals play a part in halting anarchy which could result in a less developed race. That may be happening on another planet.
I believe free will is such a mentality. A cause and effect reaction. Its possibly obvious by some heated discussions on here. Someone will defend their mentality with anything to protect themselves. I am afraid I can not describe the mechanisms of the illusion of free will as I am still pondering it. Its in my head but I cant seem to clutch on to it.

However, (and bearing in mind that quantum theory is still just a theory), does anyone here have a sound mechanism for free will?
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:17 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:15 pm
davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:03 pm

The information isn't there because of quantum mechanics -- unless one wants to hold that past, present and future all exist (thesis of eternalism) In that case the information is all there, qm and all. But even in that case, for us entities stuck inside of the universe, no computer even in principle could predict the future; it could only assess probabilities of such and such happening.
Well yeah, but the quantum field producing (seemingly) random energy is another point entirely; Inability to access information doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. It's logically impossible to predict your own future, but that doesn't mean it's logically impossible to predict your own future specifically because the future isn't pre-set.
The information doesn't exist in QM until the wave function collapses. Quantum events are literally random, thought that can be predicted as probabalistic outcomes.
I realize this, but me and noax weren't talking about the quantum field. I was assuming that if the universe was purely deterministic, we still couldn't access certain information

I'm not actually a determinist.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Well that's also true; even if qm did not exist and hard determinism were true, no computer even in principle could compute all future events.
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Noax
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Noax »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:30 pm There's no reason, since my question was sincere. I'd really like to know. You said Materialism has "comforts," and you said it in a way that seemed to imply, "of course, everybody knows what they are." But everybody doesn't.
I never claimed to be a materialist, and materialism is not one holistic philosophy. It is an opinion about one issue and not all the others. So no, I don't think there is an immaterial mind, but beyond that, my postion bears little similarity to materialism. I really don't think I could explain it to somebody so completely closed minded. You don't even let me state my premises, instead telling me a bunch of strawman premises I must hold to ease your ability to drive it to contradiction.
And like I said, it is unbelievable, so what's the point of evangelizing a position in which I hold no belief? I have no way of putting my money where my mouth is.
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Harbal
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Harbal »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:30 pm I'm not actually a determinist.
That's okay. All we ask is that you make a reasonable effort.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:42 pm Well that's also true; even if qm did not exist and hard determinism were true, no computer even in principle could compute all future events.
I think some hard determinists also just think that the energy produced from the quantum field is not truly random. They usually have some sort of skepticism about where it gets the energy from or how it gets created, but that is something we could predict as well, wherever or however it creates it.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:04 pm
davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:42 pm Well that's also true; even if qm did not exist and hard determinism were true, no computer even in principle could compute all future events.
I think some hard determinists also just think that the energy produced from the quantum field is not truly random. They usually have some sort of skepticism about where it gets the energy from or how it gets created, but that is something we could predict as well, wherever or however it creates it.
Well, they would be wrong, because Bell's Theorem demonstrates there are no hidden variables.

On the other hand, though, all this applies only to the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. On the Everett interpretation QM is fully deterministic. I'd say, though, that this would be a discussion better had in a different thread.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Let’s see if the Christian God can accommodate free will. First some definitions.

God: He exists necessarily. He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and morally perfect.

Necessity: He exists at all possible worlds (modal heuristic). He cannot not exist.

Omnipotent: He can do anything that it is logically possible to do. This means he cannot square a circle or make rock so heavy he cannot lift it. He cannot commit suicide because he is a necessary being. Omnipotence does not entail violating the laws of logic.

Omniscience: He knows everything, past, present and future. Moreover he knows all counterfactual truths: Exactly how all things would have gone, had things gone differently. The set of things he knows, actual and counterfactual, is almost surely infinite.

Omnipresent: He exists at all times and all places, now and forever. He also transcends time and space.

Moral perfection: I suppose we can treat this one as self-evident for the time being.

Free will: This one’s tricker because there are so many variant definitions of free will, but I will adopt a straightforward one on the Principle of Alternative Possibilities: Individuals are free only insofar as they have genuinely available options open to them; and, having done x, they could have done y instead. This also grounds people in moral desert: They truly deserve praise if they do good, and blame if they do badly. Moreover we will stipulate that God is the objective source of good on which people are free (or not) to ground their behavior.

The question then is how do these properties of God track with free will on PAP? Are they consistent with it? Inconsistent? Neutral? Supportive? Destructive? Something else? None of the above?

Before moving on I would first like to ask I Can whether my descriptions of God and free will agree with his and if he would like to answer the questions just posed.
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Noax
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Noax »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:39 pm It's not possible due to a logical constraint, and it's not to say that the universe isn't actually pre-set. Just because we can't obtain the information doesn't mean it's not there. I don't think the deterministic universe that most philosophers speak of require absolute prediction. I would say most would admit that will never be possible, maybe not usually for the same reason. They mostly just talk about a sort of pre-precedented universe.
Perhaps we suffer from a language disconnect here. None of what I said is a claim for or against determinism. I'm not sure of the difference between 'determined', 'pre-determined', or 'pre-set'. Information about a temporal system is just information and nothing precludes that information. But to be a prediction, the information needs to be known at an event within the system, and prior to the predicted event, and that may or may not be possible.
About the part I bolded above. Doesn't mean its not where? Is it a statement that the universe is possibly hard-determined, such as hidden-variable theory? That could well be. Ability to alter the past is a less bitter pill for some than the fact that not even an omnipotent god could know my future simply because I don't have one.
Well I mean, sure another supercomputer could change it's variables to the presentation of other variables, but that would also be something we've built as entities who can already do it. Can you name something in nature, besides living organisms, which do this?
No, not a box that can predict. I can find a trivial thing that can defy the prediction. It has free will then, eh? All the device needs to do is be predicted and use the prediction to choose the opposite thing.
A simple balance scale will do. The predictor must place a weight on the side it predicts to be up in the next second. Making such a predictor more powerful and accurate isn't the solution in this case.
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Noax
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Noax »

double post
Last edited by Noax on Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Noax
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Noax »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:15 pm
davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:03 pmThe information isn't there because of quantum mechanics -- unless one wants to hold that past, present and future all exist (thesis of eternalism) In that case the information is all there, qm and all. But even in that case, for us entities stuck inside of the universe, no computer even in principle could predict the future; it could only assess probabilities of such and such happening.
Well yeah, but the quantum field producing (seemingly) random energy is another point entirely; Inability to access information doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. It's logically impossible to predict your own future, but that doesn't mean it's logically impossible to predict your own future specifically because the future isn't pre-set.
Or it is all completely determined, but there isn't one future that is specifically yours, so the information about your future, even if all 'there' under eternalism, is not knowable even outside the system.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

davidm wrote:Well, they would be wrong
Sure. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I actually don't know that much about quantum mechanics.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Noax wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:11 pmPerhaps we suffer from a language disconnect here. None of what I said is a claim for or against determinism. I'm not sure of the difference between 'determined', 'pre-determined', or 'pre-set'. Information about a temporal system is just information and nothing precludes that information. But to be a prediction, the information needs to be known at an event within the system, and prior to the predicted event, and that may or may not be possible.

About the part I bolded above. Doesn't mean its not where? Is it a statement that the universe is possibly hard-determined, such as hidden-variable theory? That could well be. Ability to alter the past is a less bitter pill for some than the fact that not even an omnipotent god could know my future simply because I don't have one.
It sounded to me as though "No, the (Godel) theorem acts more as a rebuttal to deterministic arguments. "If determinism, the future is, in principle at least, computable." Gödel showed that it is not possible even in principle." is an anti-determinism statement, perhaps implying that the determinism philosophers speak of isn't true for this reason. I didn't know for sure if this is what you were trying to say, hence I didn't make the claim that you were, and why I added 'I'm just playing devil's advocate'

Yes, just because we can't predict our own future for the logical reasons that we've discussed, doesn't mean we don't have a precedented future. The future of the entire universe could still be predicted outside our system, is the thing. Or the supercomputer can reveal everything to itself.
No, not a box that can predict. I can find a trivial thing that can defy the prediction. It has free will then, eh? All the device needs to do is be predicted and use the prediction to choose the opposite thing.
A simple balance scale will do. The predictor must place a weight on the side it predicts to be up in the next second. Making such a predictor more powerful and accurate isn't the solution in this case.
I'm not sure I understand why you bring this up. I wasn't implying that this means we have free will, I just think it's interesting that our information changes to the mere presentation and knowledge of other information.
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