Free Will vs Determinism

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thedoc
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Re: Re:

Post by thedoc »

Belinda wrote:
henry quirk wrote:Belinda,

We have little say so in our (intial) circumstance beyond choosing how to respond or react to it.

I'm blind...had no say so in that...have all the say so in the world how I deal with blindness...blindness is my circumstane, I choose how I function with the flaw.

Dad beat me every day...I can live within that or I can move beyond it...my choice.

And: as an ugly, poor, misanthrope, I tell you plainly, my capacity for choice is not hobbled by my looks, my lacks, or my distastes.

Don't confuse shading circumstance (within or without) for cause.
Strength of character, so-called 'willpower', is caused by the individual's upbringing and inherited characteristics.
So if an individual can think for themselves and make their own decisions, they were brought up to be free thinkers and evaluate the situation before taking action.
But if they were taught that everything was determined, then they are herd animals and always follow someone else's lead.

Who is telling the determinists what to post?
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

The Doc wrote:
Who is telling the determinists what to post?
Those influences come immediately from authors and personal friends and teachers. Those authors and personal friends and teachers were in their turn influenced similarly. My acquaintances have taught me to think sceptically and as honestly as I can. The initiative for sceptical thinking is usually attributed to the scientific enlightenment and especially to Descartes. The scientific enlightenment was adopted by local authority and other schools in the UK and throughout Europe despite intransigence from religious authorities that have been unwilling to leave the age of faith for the age of reason.
Dave Mangnall
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I'll be doing well if I get away with just one brick.

Post by Dave Mangnall »

henry quirk wrote:Dave,

Speakin' only for me...

'Free will' is a placeholder...there isn't a 'free' or a 'will'...there's a human individual who thinks, feels, self-refers, pauses, considers, assesses, intends, concludes, then does...choice is what a human individual does.
I understand what you’re telling me.

I don’t know whether our experiences are actually different or whether it’s our interpretations that differ. I share your experiences about thinking, feeling etc., right up to the last bit. I’ll give you an example to illustrate what I mean.

I drink quite a lot, and habitually at 6pm I make my way towards the whisky bottle. Tonight the thought suddenly came to me, “You know what? I don’t fancy it tonight.” So the whisky bottle remained unopened tonight.

My experience is that the thought came to me, almost as though it were someone else speaking. I had no sense of originating the thought. My sense is not that I chose, but that the choice came to me.

Do you ever get that sort of experience, which is the norm for me, or is that experience quite alien to you?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote:The Doc wrote:
Who is telling the determinists what to post?
Those influences come immediately from authors and personal friends and teachers.
Belinda, the issue in Determinism is not whether you choose to think for yourself, but about whether anyone can.

The Free Will side says, some people may choose not to think for themselves but some can choose to. The Determinists say, even if a person THINKS she is thinking for herself, she is only deceived: she is still the pawn of previous causes.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I'll be doing well if I get away with just one brick.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dave Mangnall wrote: I drink quite a lot, and habitually at 6pm
How do you get from 6 a.m. to 5:59 p.m.? :wink:
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Belinda, the issue in Determinism is not whether you choose to think for yourself, but about whether anyone can.
(Belinda)True.
The Free Will side says, some people may choose not to think for themselves but some can choose to.
(Belinda) No. The Freewillies feel that they are originators of their choices. And some Freewillies actually believe that what they feel must be the truth.


The Determinists say, even if a person THINKS she is thinking for herself, she is only deceived: she is still the pawn of previous causes.
(Belinda)No. An individual, whether he is a Freewilly or a Determinist, is a pawn to the extent that he reacts to circumstances and fails to use his reason.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: not a ton of bricks, just one...

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Eodnhaj,

I mention (in passing) up-thread the idea that free will may be a nondeterministic algorithm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondete ... _algorithm

*three more placeholders that don't really mean anything[/quote]

I agree that there is a level of non determinism, so I will not argue for or against it because we would probably end in agreement.

However, there are deterministic elements in the Wikipedia example. Now as to whether the author put them intentionally or not is a separate issue. There is a definite causal chain on the left hand corner. My point is not so much to argue against a deterministic system but rather to point out different dimensions of interpretation.

When I look at a causal system, the most obvious response for me or anyone is the standard a→b→c.

However an equally valid approach would be to look at the standard a→b→c and see the manifestation of ratios that further imply definition.
a→b→c→ψ can equal:

a∋(b,c) where (b,c)= aΩ
b∋(a,c) where (a,c)= bΩ
c∋(a,b) where (a,b)= cΩ
******with ∋ translated as (Contains as an element) and Ω translated as dimensional limits observed.

as "a→b→c→ψ" is an observation of the dimensional limits of interjoined primitives/axioms. Now these dimensional limits are subject to flux (Δ), however this flux to due to further observation, so in many respects flux is equal in definition (≜) to the degree of observation (O) or:
ΩΔ ≜ dO

Now as to what constitutes a degree of definition the manifestation of further dimensions or forms through the application curvature (lines,angles, boundaries, etc.) is the most probable solution.

dO≈ x∮x

It is this perspective of determinism as the manifestation of ratios that I find very difficult to ignore as a necessary element of structure within all primitives/axioms. It is this manifestation of definition that the will seems to have a degree of freedom.


The nature of free will being, possibly, a nondeterministic algorithm would require that all result actions are inherent approximation of what one intends, however intention is would be just as approximate due to it stemming from an approximate. Now this works to a degree until a specific ideal is the determining intention of the action of the will. In this case one could not argue against a level of specificity determining the action, and making it observable deterministic up to a point where randomness is only observed. This is reflective of chaos theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) which in turn would back up your non-deterministic argument.

Now the standard Platonic forms could be considered as probabilistic functions (ex: the form of a tree has a multitude of possibilities with probable outcomes to specific circumstances) while maintain a certain stability in form alone (ex: a form of a tree is a form of a tree).

We see again a duality of stability and flux within the forms that compose both the intentions and actions of the will.


The issue I have with your argument is not the possibility that the will has non deterministic elements its rather equivocating the will to function the same as an algorithm simply because of its definition:

"The nondeterministic algorithms are often used to find an approximation to a solution, when the exact solution would be too costly to obtain using a deterministic one."

The non deterministic algorithm was created to create an efficiency in cost analysis not to overwrite determinism. It is in this element of "cost analysis forming an algorithm to promote efficiency" that a definite causal chain can be observed.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Strength of character, so-called 'willpower', is caused by the individual's upbringing and inherited characteristics."

Sure, but the schism between us isn't about 'upbringing and inherited characteristics' but instead the fundamental nature of reality. Do we live in a determined universe or a deterministic one? Are humans merely dominos or are they agents?

Is it all 'events' or is there room for 'agents'?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Dave,

No, that's not my experience.

Sure, after worrying away at a problem and gettin' no relief, sometimes the solution comes to me later when I'm doin' and thinkin' about sumthin' else, but I take this to be a function of 'me', a doing of the neurological automation from which 'I' extend out from, rise up out of.

Great chunks of my biology are automated but I sit atop it all, like you, (largely) as king of the mountain.


You and booze: no offense, Dave, but mebbe some of what you interpret to be determinism is just booze-addle.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Eodnhaj,

Go easy on me, man...I'm just a smart ape with a pointy stick.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote:Immanuel Can wrote:
The Free Will side says, some people may choose not to think for themselves but some can choose to.
(Belinda) No. The Freewillies feel that they are originators of their choices. And some Freewillies actually believe that what they feel must be the truth.
That has nothing to do with the question of whether the person has free will or not. That's merely Emotivist, or Solipsistic, or irrational. Sure, those people who think "what they feel must be the truth" are irrational; but one could be predetermined or free to be irrational.

So the question isn't settled on that issue.

(Belinda)No. An individual, whether he is a Freewilly or a Determinist, is a pawn to the extent that he reacts to circumstances and fails to use his reason.
Inconsistent arguing, I'm afraid. A person who is Deterministically controlled cannot "fail" to do anything. He or she does whatever he or she was predetermined to be obliged to do. Nothing more, less or other. And you cannot fault such a person for "failing" to do what (s)he could not possibly have done anyway.

Under Determinism, everyone is a pawn, the smart and the foolish alike. The smart are only smart because they were predetermined to be; the foolish are only foolish because they could not be anything but foolish. But foolish or wise, they are both not praiseworthy or blameworthy; for pre-existing causes, not the individual, are responsible for that situation in either case.
Eodnhoj7
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Re:

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

henry quirk wrote:Eodnhaj,

Go easy on me, man...I'm just a smart ape with a pointy stick.
Haha, at least we have something in common, I prefer throwing big rocks from high trees.


Anyhow to simplify my point:

A causal chain can be viewed as a measurement of definition relative to the axioms/primitives they are composed of. Take for instance a standard "ruler". All it is a chain of primitives (whole numbers) who relative place in space manifest definition to whatever they are reflected against.

A simultaneous perspective would be to look at the ruler and see a chain or numbers who relative points in space reflect against other numbers therefore defining themselves and the others.

ex 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

4 gains a degree of definition through its linear relations to 3 and 5
4 is a series of 1 reflecting eachother.
4 is a synthesis of 1 and 3 (1+3) or a synthesis of 10 and 6 (10-6) etc.... (to potential infinity)



Even a more specific statement would be: We used the dimensional limit of the line (potential curvature) and curvature (angles, points, etc.) in order to manifest further lines and curvature. From the proportionality between these lines/curvature and other lines/curvature we establish dimensions of measurement. This applies to all abstract and physical realities. It is in this ability to manifest dimensions and observe their relative proportionality that I believe the "will" to have a degree of freedom.

My point is not specifically to be a smart ass, even though I would be a hypocrite to say I didn't enjoy it at times, but rather to approach the discussion of the nature of the "will" and "freedom" from different angles of perspectives. Some time the problem is not the problem itself, but the angle it is approached from.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Some time the problem is not the problem itself, but the angle it is approached from."

I agree. Literally, where a body stands in relation to the problem can hobble or help.

Me, I fully admit my bias...I make no claim to being neutral...my perspsctive (where I'm standing) makes it impossible for me to take determinism (as philosophy) seriously...I'm skewed (by experience and character) to see myself, to act, as a self-director.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
henry quirk wrote:Eodnhaj,

Go easy on me, man...I'm just a smart ape with a pointy stick.
Haha, at least we have something in common, I prefer throwing big rocks from high trees.


Anyhow to simplify my point:

A causal chain can be viewed as a measurement of definition relative to the axioms/primitives they are composed of. Take for instance a standard "ruler". All it is a chain of primitives (whole numbers) who relative place in space manifest definition to whatever they are reflected against.

A simultaneous perspective would be to look at the ruler and see a chain or numbers who relative points in space reflect against other numbers therefore defining themselves and the others.

ex 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

4 gains a degree of definition through its linear relations to 3 and 5
4 is a series of 1 reflecting eachother.
4 is a synthesis of 1 and 3 (1+3) or a synthesis of 10 and 6 (10-6) etc.... (to potential infinity)



Even a more specific statement would be: We used the dimensional limit of the line (potential curvature) and curvature (angles, points, etc.) in order to manifest further lines and curvature. From the proportionality between these lines/curvature and other lines/curvature we establish dimensions of measurement. This applies to all abstract and physical realities. It is in this ability to manifest dimensions and observe their relative proportionality that I believe the "will" to have a degree of freedom.

My point is not specifically to be a smart ass, even though I would be a hypocrite to say I didn't enjoy it at times, but rather to approach the discussion of the nature of the "will" and "freedom" from different angles of perspectives. Some time the problem is not the problem itself, but the angle it is approached from.
Cause is not a chain.
And drawing an illustration using a analytic concept does not help. Causality happens in reality, not in the conceptual or abstract.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Re:

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
henry quirk wrote:Eodnhaj,

Go easy on me, man...I'm just a smart ape with a pointy stick.
Haha, at least we have something in common, I prefer throwing big rocks from high trees.


Anyhow to simplify my point:

A causal chain can be viewed as a measurement of definition relative to the axioms/primitives they are composed of. Take for instance a standard "ruler". All it is a chain of primitives (whole numbers) who relative place in space manifest definition to whatever they are reflected against.

A simultaneous perspective would be to look at the ruler and see a chain or numbers who relative points in space reflect against other numbers therefore defining themselves and the others.

ex 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

4 gains a degree of definition through its linear relations to 3 and 5
4 is a series of 1 reflecting eachother.
4 is a synthesis of 1 and 3 (1+3) or a synthesis of 10 and 6 (10-6) etc.... (to potential infinity)



Even a more specific statement would be: We used the dimensional limit of the line (potential curvature) and curvature (angles, points, etc.) in order to manifest further lines and curvature. From the proportionality between these lines/curvature and other lines/curvature we establish dimensions of measurement. This applies to all abstract and physical realities. It is in this ability to manifest dimensions and observe their relative proportionality that I believe the "will" to have a degree of freedom.

My point is not specifically to be a smart ass, even though I would be a hypocrite to say I didn't enjoy it at times, but rather to approach the discussion of the nature of the "will" and "freedom" from different angles of perspectives. Some time the problem is not the problem itself, but the angle it is approached from.
Cause is not a chain.
And drawing an illustration using a analytic concept does not help. Causality happens in reality, not in the conceptual or abstract.
Since when does the abstract not reflect into reality or vice versa? Take for example the nature of this conversation, discussing the nature of reality (in this instance the "will"), reflects upon ideas, experiences, etc. These reflections reflect through further actions and thoughts, and through their reflection manifest into reality. Abstractions, such as metaphysics, reflect in the choices people make.

A concept such as "convenience" which is fundamentally an abstraction as it is strictly axiomatic, is physicalized into technological changes and progress.

Should I go on?
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