Free Will vs Determinism

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davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:02 pm There cannot be an infinite number of past events because differentiation of existence itself into events is conceptualisation, and only special beings can conceptualise.

To claim that differentiated events transcendentally exist is tantamount to claiming that God created things from the elemental chaos.
There can, indeed, be an infinite number of past events, as I have shown.
Viveka
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Viveka »

davidm wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:02 pm There cannot be an infinite number of past events because differentiation of existence itself into events is conceptualisation, and only special beings can conceptualise.

To claim that differentiated events transcendentally exist is tantamount to claiming that God created things from the elemental chaos.
There can, indeed, be an infinite number of past events, as I have shown.
I think infinite regression as a supposed fallacy is simply a lack of imagination.
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

davidm wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:02 pm There cannot be an infinite number of past events because differentiation of existence itself into events is conceptualisation, and only special beings can conceptualise.

To claim that differentiated events transcendentally exist is tantamount to claiming that God created things from the elemental chaos.
There can, indeed, be an infinite number of past events, as I have shown.
I failed to understand what you wrote.

What do you mean by "event", and who determines the boundaries of an event?
Londoner
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Londoner »

Viveka wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:08 pm Who's to say that the infinity can't be traversed? Zeno's Paradoxes are examples of infinity traversed.
They are infinities made up of a never-ending number of bits, for example time being made up of quantities of 'moments'. But if we think of infinity that way then it becomes self-contradictory. For example, if infinities were made up of numbers then some infinities would be larger than others (half-infinity would be infinite, but also only half the size of complete-infinity). I think infinity only makes sense if it is not thought of as a quantity, but rather being outside quantification. So we cannot traverse 'infinite space' because those words do not describe a quantity of space.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

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Londoner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 am
Viveka wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:08 pm Who's to say that the infinity can't be traversed? Zeno's Paradoxes are examples of infinity traversed.
They are infinities made up of a never-ending number of bits, for example time being made up of quantities of 'moments'. But if we think of infinity that way then it becomes self-contradictory. For example, if infinities were made up of numbers then some infinities would be larger than others (half-infinity would be infinite, but also only half the size of complete-infinity). I think infinity only makes sense if it is not thought of as a quantity, but rather being outside quantification. So we cannot traverse 'infinite space' because those words do not describe a quantity of space.
Actually, yes, you can traverse anything infinite, in finite space, if the things that make up the infinite number of units you traverse are infinitely small.

This is the basic idea behind the mathematical branch of calculus.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

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Londoner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 am
Viveka wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:08 pm Who's to say that the infinity can't be traversed? Zeno's Paradoxes are examples of infinity traversed.
They are infinities made up of a never-ending number of bits, for example time being made up of quantities of 'moments'. But if we think of infinity that way then it becomes self-contradictory. For example, if infinities were made up of numbers then some infinities would be larger than others (half-infinity would be infinite, but also only half the size of complete-infinity). I think infinity only makes sense if it is not thought of as a quantity, but rather being outside quantification. So we cannot traverse 'infinite space' because those words do not describe a quantity of space.
Another way of looking at traversing through an infinite number of things is the speed of travel. You can travel through 8 Km in two hours if you traverse distance at a rate of 4 Km/h. Similarly, you can traverse an infinite amount of "moments" in the past by going at a speed of infinite amount moments per unit time.

Zeno's paradox is easy to debunk. He mistakenly enlarged a series of units that were getting smaller and smaller, into equal sizes. That was the crux of his paradox. If you know a bit of calculus, you can easily pee through that.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

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-1- wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:15 pmIf you know a bit of calculus, you can easily pee through that.
My mistake. I meant to say "...you can easily see through that." I regret the error.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:27 am
davidm wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:02 pm There cannot be an infinite number of past events because differentiation of existence itself into events is conceptualisation, and only special beings can conceptualise.

To claim that differentiated events transcendentally exist is tantamount to claiming that God created things from the elemental chaos.
There can, indeed, be an infinite number of past events, as I have shown.
I failed to understand what you wrote.

What do you mean by "event", and who determines the boundaries of an event?
In spacetime, an event is designated by four coordinates: (t,x,y,z) If spacetime is infinite, and the evidence suggests that it is, than there are a infinite number of events, including an infinite number in our past.
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

Davidm wrote:
In spacetime, an event is designated by four coordinates: (t,x,y,z) If spacetime is infinite, and the evidence suggests that it is, than there are a infinite number of events, including an infinite number in our past.
I understand what you mean by an event. But you didn't say who is the authority who defined.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 pm Davidm wrote:
In spacetime, an event is designated by four coordinates: (t,x,y,z) If spacetime is infinite, and the evidence suggests that it is, than there are a infinite number of events, including an infinite number in our past.
I understand what you mean by an event. But you didn't say who is the authority who defined.
This is a consequence of general relativity. All events in spacetime are defined by four coordinates. Moreover, all of them exist. The past, present and future all exist.
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

davidm wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 pm Davidm wrote:
In spacetime, an event is designated by four coordinates: (t,x,y,z) If spacetime is infinite, and the evidence suggests that it is, than there are a infinite number of events, including an infinite number in our past.
I understand what you mean by an event. But you didn't say who is the authority who defined.
This is a consequence of general relativity. All events in spacetime are defined by four coordinates. Moreover, all of them exist. The past, present and future all exist.
But within one limited universe of discourse? I'd need to be able to justify its status.
davidm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by davidm »

Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:17 pm
davidm wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 pm Davidm wrote:



I understand what you mean by an event. But you didn't say who is the authority who defined.
This is a consequence of general relativity. All events in spacetime are defined by four coordinates. Moreover, all of them exist. The past, present and future all exist.
But within one limited universe of discourse? I'd need to be able to justify its status.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda »

This is a consequence of general relativity. All events in spacetime are defined by four coordinates. Moreover, all of them exist. The past, present and future all exist.
Davidm, I mean that the above is from one metaphysical perspective. The materialism(physicalism) perspective. Metaphysics people ask "what exists?" and expect all the theories of existence to be the answer. If you are going to claim that materialism(physicalism) is the the best theory of existence I'd prefer that you justified that claim, even if only pragmatically.

I do believe that scientific knowledge especially physics diminishes the scope of metaphysics but I don't know enough about physics or maths to know how or how much it does so.
Viveka
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Viveka »

Londoner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 am
Viveka wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:08 pm Who's to say that the infinity can't be traversed? Zeno's Paradoxes are examples of infinity traversed.
They are infinities made up of a never-ending number of bits, for example time being made up of quantities of 'moments'. But if we think of infinity that way then it becomes self-contradictory. For example, if infinities were made up of numbers then some infinities would be larger than others (half-infinity would be infinite, but also only half the size of complete-infinity). I think infinity only makes sense if it is not thought of as a quantity, but rather being outside quantification. So we cannot traverse 'infinite space' because those words do not describe a quantity of space.
Cantor's Transfinite numbers are different sizes of infinity.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Immanuel Can »

davidm wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:50 pm ...it fails to show that an actual infinite is not possible....
Actually, I've given you a solid demonstration of it.

Start counting forward from an infinitely receded starting point, if you can. That's a perfect demonstration of why an actual infinite regression of causes is impossible.

And so far, you're not counting, are you?
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