He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2888
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm Thus there is no truth? That's absurd at best. There are self-evident truths, we just have to feel the breath under our nose to know them.
There are tautologies, there is "Cogito ergo sum" and beyond that all empirical knowledge is suspect to be illusions. Maybe they are illusions, maybe they are not illusions, but we shalt never know whether it's an illusion or not.

We don't know the truth about the empirical (real) world.
Celebritydiscodave2
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:51 pm
Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm Thus there is no truth? That's absurd at best. There are self-evident truths, we just have to feel the breath under our nose to know them.
There are tautologies, there is "Cogito ergo sum" and beyond that all empirical knowledge is suspect to be illusions. Maybe they are illusions, maybe they are not illusions, but we shalt never know whether it's an illusion or not.

We don't know the truth about the empirical (real) world.
The sentiment only refers to that nature of conscious truth which can be known,, not that which is, not reality, truth, the telling of the truth as opposed to the telling of a lie. If one is asked the distance to the moon and subsequently gets the answer wrong he has not lied, it`s an unrelated area.
Viveka
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Viveka »

-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:49 pm
Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm If one only knows the truth, one cannot lie.
Sure one can. I broke a vase. I know I will get out of being punished for it if I lie and say I did not do it. I know the truth, yet I can utter an untruth. There is not even magic behind this. This is bread and butter of child-rearing.
That's when children learn to lie from someone else's example. Children are naturally truth-tellers, and if they only knew the truth then that's all they'd tell.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2888
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Viveka wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:02 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:49 pm
Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm If one only knows the truth, one cannot lie.
Sure one can. I broke a vase. I know I will get out of being punished for it if I lie and say I did not do it. I know the truth, yet I can utter an untruth. There is not even magic behind this. This is bread and butter of child-rearing.
That's when children learn to lie from someone else's example. Children are naturally truth-tellers, and if they only knew the truth then that's all they'd tell.
so... who invented and uttered the first lie? Apparently nobody could have. Yet it exists. Ergo, lies can be manufactured by priorly innocent and naive people.

If you have dogs, you know that a dog will attempt to lie. S/he never learned it from example.

I reject your thesis.
Celebritydiscodave2
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

Viveka wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:02 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:49 pm
Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm If one only knows the truth, one cannot lie.
Sure one can. I broke a vase. I know I will get out of being punished for it if I lie and say I did not do it. I know the truth, yet I can utter an untruth. There is not even magic behind this. This is bread and butter of child-rearing.
That's when children learn to lie from someone else's example. Children are naturally truth-tellers, and if they only knew the truth then that's all they'd tell.
"If one only knows the truth one cannot lie", trust me, one most definitely cannot lie. It means exactly this, that one knows not to do it/that one out of conviction will never do it/ that it is not in them to do it/ that one has never done it so knows not to think to do it. This is what that sentiment means, and there is no alternative meaning.

They attempt to capitalize on the perceived benefits of not telling the truth, but one does not as such learn to lie. Exactly how to lie is learnt however.

Children are naturally truth tellers in a loving environment, but not when telling the truth may get them the belt. Children lie in an attempt to avoid outcomes.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2888
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:55 pm
Darkshad3 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
The mistake we make is to find cognitive / corresponding / causational / correlational relationships between the two parts: "He who cannot lie" and "does not know what the truth is."

Nobody knows what the truth is (if you ask Plato, Socrates, and derivatives.) If you can lie, you don't know what the truth is, and if you cannot lie, you don't know what the truth is.

You may as well say, "He, who can't ride his bicycle underwater, does not know what the truth is."
"He, who cannot grasp the notion of God, does not know what the truth is." ( Careful... this is slippery.)
"He, who cannot eat peanuts, does not know what the truth is."
ETC.
Thus there is no truth? That's absurd at best. There are self-evident truths, we just have to feel the breath under our nose to know them.
Nice Strawman fallacy, Viveka. I did not say truth did not exist. Read my words, to verify this present claim. I said, "We don't know what the truth is." It is not equivalent at all to "there is no truth". Please read, think, and don't accuse people of saying things which only your delusions tell me they said. Check reality, and check reality often.
Celebritydiscodave2
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

Yes, everybody is coming up with codes and complex language over a simple concept, but truth is only ever perceptual, what is true for one may not be for another. Some of you seem to imagine that something of that which is true is fixed.
"He whom cannot lie knows not what the truth is" Absolute rubbish, the whole world around them is in the business of truth telling and lieing, so how stupid do you imagine these people to be? Once you have a name you can say virtually anything you like and it wont be questioned. The only reason this sentiment is given time of day is that it is the product of a name, and he could always dig himself out of the pit, by suggesting that he had meant on this level, or on that level, or some other level. That sentiment does not stand up as being philosophy, and much of the deliberately impossible to understand garbage out there neither.
Viveka
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Viveka »

-1- wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:51 am
Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:55 pm

The mistake we make is to find cognitive / corresponding / causational / correlational relationships between the two parts: "He who cannot lie" and "does not know what the truth is."

Nobody knows what the truth is (if you ask Plato, Socrates, and derivatives.) If you can lie, you don't know what the truth is, and if you cannot lie, you don't know what the truth is.

You may as well say, "He, who can't ride his bicycle underwater, does not know what the truth is."
"He, who cannot grasp the notion of God, does not know what the truth is." ( Careful... this is slippery.)
"He, who cannot eat peanuts, does not know what the truth is."
ETC.
Thus there is no truth? That's absurd at best. There are self-evident truths, we just have to feel the breath under our nose to know them.
Nice Strawman fallacy, Viveka. I did not say truth did not exist. Read my words, to verify this present claim. I said, "We don't know what the truth is." It is not equivalent at all to "there is no truth". Please read, think, and don't accuse people of saying things which only your delusions tell me they said. Check reality, and check reality often.
If we cannot know the truth, is there truth?
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2888
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Viveka wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:27 pm If we cannot know the truth, is there truth?
There are many things whose nature we don't know or cannot know, and yet we do know they may or may not exist.

Truth is one of them. (I take truth is knowledge which precisely corresponds to reality.) We cannot know the truth; but there may be other entities that are equipped to know the truth.

I cannot name such an entity. But I believe the possibility for such an entity is real.

So to answer your question to the best of my thinking, truth has a capacity to exist, but not for the grasp of humans, instead, for the grasp of other entities whose nature we don't know anything about.
Celebritydiscodave2
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

QUOTE "There are many things whose nature we don't know or cannot know, and yet we do know they may or may not exist"
.
That line says exactly nothing, the initial something is then totally canceled out. What did you actually mean to say?

QUOTE (I take truth is knowledge which precisely corresponds to reality.) We cannot know the truth; but there may be other entities that are equipped to know the truth.

Does n`t mean anything, so do you mean the following? Truth is that knowledge which precisely corresponds with reality.

Everybody is aware of truth, it is solely a personal commodity, and it is only measured in terms of that which is perceived as being true by any individual at any particular time. It`s in constant flux. Reality is a measure for majority perceived actuality, whilst not absolutely so,it is far more stable. There is also personal reality to be considered here. Truth is matter a fact, and reality extends to environment. Only "that which is"/straight actuality can be considered an absolute measure.
Post Reply