Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

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Systematic
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Systematic » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:31 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm
I have often wondered just how powerful language alone can actually be. Is it possible to convince anyone of anything by just saying the right thing? Perhaps it's more of a psychological question than a philosophical one, but imagine a machine capable of looking into your brain which knows everything about you, and everything that's ever happened to it. It knows exactly which argumentation styles that are the most convincing to you, your favorite words, your current emotions, and every corollary that follows. Using nothing more than words and talking to you to get you to believe in something, would this machine be able make you believe in anything? Are words enough to invoke revelations powerful enough to change very deep-rooted beliefs, even clear irrationalities like convincing you the law of identity isn't actually true?

If the answer is no, how do you think this affects philosophical arguments? Are some debates simply meaningless to get into with the intent of convincing the other person?

My answer is, within a limited amount of time - no. Given an infinite amount of time, I lean more toward thinking this hypothetical machine would be able to convince you of anything. It's hard for us to imagine how an omniscient thing would actually work in reality, but given what I know of human psychology, people don't usually end up changing their world-views, at least the important ones, from a single discussion. It's usually about having good arguments laminate on their mind for an extended period of time, and build up after consequent discussions. If indoctrination is any constellation, otherwise smart people also have no problem of being convinced of even the irrational things, in certain situations. Granted this often involves omitted information as well, but it's all relative to this topic.
I think that you are correct.
Anyone can be convinced of anything that is within their own powers of comprehension. I think that's why the church keeps dumbing down their message.

Homeworkdoer
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Homeworkdoer » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:14 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm
I have often wondered just how powerful language alone can actually be. Is it possible to convince anyone of anything by just saying the right thing? Perhaps it's more of a psychological question than a philosophical one, but imagine a machine capable of looking into your brain which knows everything about you, and everything that's ever happened to it. It knows exactly which argumentation styles that are the most convincing to you, your favorite words, your current emotions, and every corollary that follows. Using nothing more than words and talking to you to get you to believe in something, would this machine be able make you believe in anything? Are words enough to invoke revelations powerful enough to change very deep-rooted beliefs, even clear irrationalities like convincing you the law of identity isn't actually true?

If the answer is no, how do you think this affects philosophical arguments? Are some debates simply meaningless to get into with the intent of convincing the other person?

My answer is, within a limited amount of time - no. Given an infinite amount of time, I lean more toward thinking this hypothetical machine would be able to convince you of anything. It's hard for us to imagine how an omniscient thing would actually work in reality, but given what I know of human psychology, people don't usually end up changing their world-views, at least the important ones, from a single discussion. It's usually about having good arguments laminate on their mind for an extended period of time, and build up after consequent discussions. If indoctrination is any constellation, otherwise smart people also have no problem of being convinced of even the irrational things, in certain situations. Granted this often involves omitted information as well, but it's all relative to this topic.
Most definitely. That is precisely how politics happens. Choice of words woos people into selecting a given candidate. The same applies to love. A choice of words can result in the best persuasion

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm

ken wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:11 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:21 pm
ken wrote:
I have previously suggested that one of the easiest quickest and simplest ways to learn some thing new is to ask questions
I prefer to frame questions as statements
But statements are NOT questions.
What makes you ask that!

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm
ken wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:11 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:21 pm

I prefer to frame questions as statements
But statements are NOT questions.
What makes you ask that!
Were you asking a question, but posing it as a statement, or were you just posing a statement as a question, or were you trying to do some thing else?

Walker
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Walker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:54 pm

ken wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm
ken wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:11 pm


But statements are NOT questions.
What makes you ask that!
Were you asking a question, but posing it as a statement, or were you just posing a statement as a question, or were you trying to do some thing else?
What makes you ask that?

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:10 pm

Walker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:54 pm
ken wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 pm

What makes you ask that!
Were you asking a question, but posing it as a statement, or were you just posing a statement as a question, or were you trying to do some thing else?
What makes you ask that?
Curiosity.

What makes you ask questions?

Walker
Posts: 3784
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Walker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:24 am

ken wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:10 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:54 pm
ken wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 pm


Were you asking a question, but posing it as a statement, or were you just posing a statement as a question, or were you trying to do some thing else?
What makes you ask that?
Curiosity.

What makes you ask questions?
Need, which is the reason for all movement of body and mind. Conversely, no need for trivialities results in no need for stupid questions.

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:28 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:24 am
ken wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:10 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:54 pm

What makes you ask that?
Curiosity.

What makes you ask questions?
Need, which is the reason for all movement of body and mind. Conversely, no need for trivialities results in no need for stupid questions.
Why would you NEED to ask NEEDless questions?

What would happen if you did not ask that question. Would would happen to that body and so called "mind"?

By the way, the Mind does NOT move.

Also, this body some times moves because of things i want, and certainly do NOT need. For example, not to long ago this body moved to get some chocolate. There was certainly NO need for that. But there was a fair bit of want taking place in there.

The word 'need' is in relation to some thing necessary.

To Me, there are only four needs for human beings;
1. Clean enough air, so that the body does not stop breathing from to much pollution.
2. Clean enough water, for the same reason.
3. Just enough nutrients.
4. Attention.

All the rest are just wants.
On the last one, sure after a certain age this body could keep on living without any attention from any thing else whatsoever, but without any attention I do not see any purpose then to keep on living?

When you use the word 'need' what is it in relation to exactly?

You say 'need' is the reason for all movement of body and mind, so to Me that implies that there will be some final outcome, which has already been planned or designed. Is this correct?

If ALL movement is 'needed', then what is ALL the movement of ALL these bodies 'needed' for exactly?

Walker
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Walker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:36 am

The mighty pause.

What, makes you ask that!

Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
What could be a who, ask yourself who.
Why is the shared wonder of it all.

That that is is.
That, that is, is.

Not a thing in the universe: not body, not thought, not object, moves unless it must.
That’s the meat of it.
The reasons are the scraps.

How could questions make it any clearer?

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:33 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:36 am
The mighty pause.

What, makes you ask that!

Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
What could be a who, ask yourself who.
Why is the shared wonder of it all.

That that is is.
That, that is, is.

Not a thing in the universe: not body, not thought, not object, moves unless it must.
That’s the meat of it.
The reasons are the scraps.

How could questions make it any clearer?
Very easily. For example, if you answered the questions asked of you, then 'it' WOULD become much clearer. 'It' being the clarification sort by asking the question in the first place. It is all very simple and very easy really.

The reason questions make 'it' much clearer is because clarity is gained when clarifying questions are answered. No one is forcing you to answer questions, but if you do not want to, or can not, then so be it. Your refusal, either way, to clarify what you propose is true, clarifies, by showing, what the actual truth is anyway.

Your inaction or inability to clarify My question about WHY you said 'need' is the reason for all movement of body and mind, IS part of the proof I NEED in order to achieve what it is that I have set out to achieve. Even though you are completely unaware of it, at the moment, your inability to support your own thoughts and statement here proves they are correct.

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:49 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:36 am
The mighty pause.

What, makes you ask that!

Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
What could be a who, ask yourself who.
Why is the shared wonder of it all.

That that is is.
That, that is, is.

Not a thing in the universe: not body, not thought, not object, moves unless it must.
That’s the meat of it.
The reasons are the scraps.

How could questions make it any clearer?
The 'reason' provides the answer and the solution to stopping human beings from doing that what they perceive is needed, which is what is causing the demise in the beginning. So, the 'reasons' are NOT scraps in the sense that you are trying to make out here. KNOWING the reasons allows the prevention of the causes.

I did NOT say bodies, thoughts, objects do NOT move. I just asked you, if ALL movement is 'needed', then what is ALL the movement of ALL these bodies 'needed' for exactly? In other words, "Why MUST they move?" I already KNOW the answer. I just want you to show others what you know.

You say, 'that is the meat of it'. But just saying 'what happens' does not provide any clarity as to WHY it MUST, or NEEDS to, happen. I already KNOW the answer so if you can not answer it, then that is fine. I totally understand WHY you can not.

When people come on here proposing some thing as though it is the Truth, then that is great because their inability to answer My clarifying questions allows the actual Truth to come through, which some times is the exact same, like in your case here. And, if they can answer My clarifying questions, then that is just as good because then it is them who is providing WHY that proposed Truth IS thee Truth.

Either way that is WHY questions help to make 'it' (the truth) clearer.

Walker
Posts: 3784
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Walker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:20 am

Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.

ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:57 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:20 am
Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.
If you heard, "Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.", how long do you think it would take to tell 'what you know'?

Walker
Posts: 3784
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Walker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:12 am

ken wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:57 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:20 am
Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.
If you heard, "Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.", how long do you think it would take to tell 'what you know'?
I'd expect you to come clean with what it is you yourself said that you already know; brevity may not be within your capacity but it is the soul of wit.

ken
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:42 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:12 am
ken wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:57 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:20 am
Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.
If you heard, "Do tell, what you know. Time is short. Don't be coy.", how long do you think it would take to tell 'what you know'?
I'd expect you to come clean with what it is you yourself said that you already know; brevity may not be within your capacity but it is the soul of wit.
Once again not being able to, or not being willing, to clarify any question.

Also, if you do not expect any thing, then you will not be so quickly and easily disappointed. What you expect to happen, does not necessarily mean that it will happen.

I might NEED to make you wait.

Because you might NEED to learn some thing else, other than what it is that you are desiring to learn. If NEED is the reason for all movement of body, thought, and object, then, if I decide to not give you what you expect right now, then that MUST be how It is meant and needs to be. Of course you already know this is True, because you fully understand that every body, every thought, and every object only moves, or does not move, because it MUST.

Telling Me not to be coy will NOT make me move. Also, saying that time is short (whatever that may mean and/or how that could even be possible) will also NOT make me move. You might NEED to find another way to get Me to respond to exactly what it is that you want Me to respond to and clarify. I will give you a hint, there is a much simpler and easier way to get exactly what you want and desire here, and it is staring you in the face. Can you see it?

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