Free Will vs Determinism

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm

Vendetta fell into SOB's trap when he wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:42 pm
How is your creator and your belief therein any more valid than ours? You attack in claims of so called schizophrenia, yet in this similar sort of "evidenceless" belief you are an exemption? I would say this is even less probable, considering that only you have made claims to the existence of this being.
Perhaps you're being ironic. In that case, maybe it's that you really don't have an actual argument.
The following is how he screwed up:

How is your creator and your belief therein any more valid than ours?
Exactly! Back at you! ;-)

You attack in claims of so called schizophrenia, yet in this similar sort of "evidenceless" belief you are an exemption?
Not at all! Back at you! ;-)

I would say this is even less probable, considering that only you have made claims to the existence of this being.
In the beginning of your god, only one made claims! Back at you! ;-)

Perhaps you're being ironic. In that case, maybe it's that you really don't have an actual argument.
Back at you, my friend, BACK AT YOU!!! ;-)

So now do you see the trap I laid before IC, that your dumb ass fell into! I at least, have to give him credit for being smart enough not to bite, but then I didn't need him to, because either way he'd lose!

Now what do you think of me DIPSHIT! An SOB, right?

That will teach you to suck IC, and gang up on me just because you two are lying butt buddies, perpetuating that which neither of you can prove, that wishful thinking simply because you fear death! You know, 'birds of a feather, flock together.' Not this bird, I stand alone. No one can ever buy me! Friendship never trumps truth, truth always trumps friendship, and everything else for that matter. I only stand for the truth, no matter how painful it is for others or me to experience, as experiencing the pain in truth shall always set one free! Knowledge is power! The truth of the universe is all that matters, as it puts mankind in it's rightful place!

Actually you should have paid attention, my beef was with them saying they "knew," not that they "believed." I'm perfectly happy with letting them "believe." But this is a philosophy forum and what constitutes 'knowing' is the specialty around here. There is no room for over 2000 years of unsubstantiated 'belief' in an invisible entity you've named god.

You can believe all you want but you can't know! I'm an Agnostic:

agnostic[ ag-nos-tik]
noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Neither the atheist nor the theist can 'know.' They can only ever 'believe,' and that's a fact!

Got it?

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Thu May 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 5:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 5:26 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 5:21 pm

When you want to stop playing games and take it seriously, we'll have an adult conversation, otherwise, Fuck Off! I have no tolerance for those that would "ACT" like second graders when they're not!
Capisce?
I'm looking for the part of this yelling of his that resembles adult discourse. I note yelling, the obscenities and the personal attacks...not calm and reasoned discourse.

Sorry, V....I can't lend you any assistance in locating it. You might want to let this one return to the muddy waters of his origin. :wink:
I think at this point it's safe to assume that there isn't any to begin with. Ah well, back he goes then. :D
Fear, the mind killer! And as it now surely seems, the argument killer, at least for those whose argument is based upon lies.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by uwot » Fri May 19, 2017 12:27 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
You can believe all you want but you can't know! I'm an Agnostic:

agnostic[ ag-nos-tik]
noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Neither the atheist nor the theist can 'know.' They can only ever 'believe,' and that's a fact!

Got it?
Really? What people generally don't understand about agnosticism is that, unlike theism or atheism, it is a truth claim. Note that the claim is that the nature of things is unknowable. (Someone who thinks "human knowledge is limited to experience" is an empiricist.) Atheism (for nth time) is simply the lack of belief in any god. Any atheist who claims they 'know' that god doesn't exist, doesn't know what know means, but most reasonable atheists, me for instance, accept that there may be a god, who might one day reveal itself. Some theists claim that a god, or gods have revealed themselves. Maybe, but not in a way that atheists find compelling.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
So as some would say, "I'm on the fence." I entertain both possibilities! Of course it's perfect that I'm on the fence, as it means that I can see farther than either theists or atheists which are simply on either side of that fence! ;-)

Isn't that clever! :lol:
Well, if you can get your head around the above, it'll be a start.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri May 19, 2017 1:53 am

uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 12:27 am
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
You can believe all you want but you can't know! I'm an Agnostic:

agnostic[ ag-nos-tik]
noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Neither the atheist nor the theist can 'know.' They can only ever 'believe,' and that's a fact!

Got it?
Really? What people generally don't understand about agnosticism is that, unlike theism or atheism, it is a truth claim. Note that the claim is that the nature of things is unknowable. (Someone who thinks "human knowledge is limited to experience" is an empiricist.) Atheism (for nth time) is simply the lack of belief in any god. Any atheist who claims they 'know' that god doesn't exist, doesn't know what know means, but most reasonable atheists, me for instance, accept that there may be a god, who might one day reveal itself. Some theists claim that a god, or gods have revealed themselves. Maybe, but not in a way that atheists find compelling.
I see it the same way, but strict atheists, by definition, see that there can't be a god, but that's what I like about you, you're actually reasonable.

Here you go:

atheist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


No mention of the possibility of a god whatsoever.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
So as some would say, "I'm on the fence." I entertain both possibilities! Of course it's perfect that I'm on the fence, as it means that I can see farther than either theists or atheists which are simply on either side of that fence! ;-)

Isn't that clever! :lol:
Well, if you can get your head around the above, it'll be a start.
There's nothing you can say that I can't get my head around if I care to! You do know what a joke is, right?

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by thedoc » Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
So as some would say, "I'm on the fence." I entertain both possibilities! Of course it's perfect that I'm on the fence, as it means that I can see farther than either theists or atheists which are simply on either side of that fence!
"Sitting On The Fence

There was an incredibly large group of people assembled. On one side of the
group stood a man, Jesus. On the other side of the group stood another man,
Satan. Separating them, running through the group was a fence.

The scene set, both Jesus and Satan began calling to the people in the group
and, one by one, each having made up his or her mind, each went to either
Jesus or Satan.

This kept going, and eventually Jesus had gathered around him a group of
people from the larger crowds, as did Satan. But one man joined neither
group. He climbed the fence that was there and just sat down on it. Then
Jesus and his people left and disappeared. So too did Satan and
his people.

And the man on the fence sat alone.

As this man sat there, Satan came back, and appeared to be looking for
something that he'd lost. The man said, "Have you lost something?" Satan
looked straight at him and replied, "No, there you are. Come with me."

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by uwot » Fri May 19, 2017 7:27 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:53 am
I see it the same way, but strict atheists, by definition, see that there can't be a god, but that's what I like about you, you're actually reasonable.

Here you go:

atheist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


No mention of the possibility of a god whatsoever.
Is this a definition of "strict atheists"?
It's very simple. Look at these two sentences:
1. I do not believe there is a god.
2. I believe there is no god.
If you can tell the difference, bravo, you are cleverer than many of the theists on this forum.
Since we're being strict: strictly speaking, all anyone has to say to qualify as an atheist is 1. There is no strictness in atheism that requires anyone to insist there is no god. If you simply don't believe it, congratulations you're in the club. By the same token, a theist is not compelled to provide any evidence that there is a god; it is quite enough simply to believe in one. The exception, I would say, is that if theists try to impose their 'god given' rules, they really need to prove there is a god.
Agnosticism is generally taken to mean 'Don't know, don't care', but as you are keen on definitions, here's one for agnosticism:
"Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe. Consequently, agnosticism puts aside not only the greater part of popular theology, but also the greater part of anti-theology." That was written by Thomas Huxley, and if anyone knows what agnosticism means, it's him, because he invented the word.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
There's nothing you can say that I can't get my head around if I care to!
That's the spirit. Try again then.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
You do know what a joke is, right?
Either you haven't read much of my stuff, or you don't.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by uwot » Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am

thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
"Sitting On The Fence

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by thedoc » Fri May 19, 2017 1:57 pm

uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am
thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
"Sitting On The Fence

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.
While Christianity is the focus of the story, the meaning is much broader and speaks to all aspects of life. Make a choice and move on.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Walker » Fri May 19, 2017 2:27 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:57 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am
thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
"Sitting On The Fence

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.
While Christianity is the focus of the story, the meaning is much broader and speaks to all aspects of life. Make a choice and move on.
Spreading a bit broader, what the story means is that in the dualistic, physical realm the devil owns the double yellow stripes on the highway of life and will claim that motorcycle lane in-between; will claim it with the crushing wheels of a heavy eighteen-wheeler. Any mortal putting along in a little Hyundai or wobbling on a bicycle is free to dispute ownership of the double yellow at the moment of truth, for whatever truth it will provide in life soon to be over. Fortunately for the prudent, the big truck has bright headlights so no one stays in the lane out of ignorance, but out of a need corrupted into evil as measured against life. Or, the bright headlights of the debble are missed because they come up from behind, and the mortal who is slower than the flow of traffic forgets to look over the shoulder now and then, and gets flattened on the double yellow. You think they would see the shadows cast ahead, in their path. Perhaps, the sun was too bright and overpowered the devil's headlights, while the biker was arrogant to claim that lane under those conditions.

:roll:

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri May 19, 2017 3:15 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:57 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am
thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
"Sitting On The Fence

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.
While Christianity is the focus of the story, the meaning is much broader and speaks to all aspects of life. Make a choice and move on.
I think it actually can be a practical life-lesson, even without the religious references, if we choose to apply it that way.

Let's take Peter Singer's famous "Shallow Pond" thought experiment: a child is drowning in a shallow pond, and you become aware of it. Three different attitudes on the part of the observer are possible:

1. Helpful -- Save the child.

2. Antagonistic -- Throw rocks at him until he drowns. If he tries to get out, push him back in.

3. Neutral -- Sit down and watch, and have some popcorn.

#3 is the "fence" option. But both #2 and #3 are "the Devil's" options. #2 makes you a cause of evil, but #3 makes you bad even though you chose not to take a position. It makes you callous and criminally negligent. The Devil owns the fence on that one.

Many issues in life are like that. Neglect your health, and you'll soon be sick. Do nothing when there's a fire, and you'll burn. Let your children do as they please, and you'll be a horrible parent. Or, as the old saying goes, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good [people] to do nothing." Neutrality is often permissive of evil, and thus complicit with it, if not the cause of it. The Devil owns the fence.

So it's just a good cautionary note for anyone, I would say.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Ansiktsburk » Sat May 20, 2017 9:44 am

Well, you can sit by the pond for a while and see if that stupid kid can get out of it, and maybe at last, with a frown help the little bastard before he actually dies. The chance is that the kid will learn how to handle the situation himself, which is good for him and relieves you of the burden of getting all wet.

People, especially in my home country full of champagne bolsheviks will go to extremes to be "helpful" and seem like a good person. I say, relax a little. I'd say that Satan not owns that fence, he's at best a shareholder.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat May 20, 2017 2:03 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
So as some would say, "I'm on the fence." I entertain both possibilities! Of course it's perfect that I'm on the fence, as it means that I can see farther than either theists or atheists which are simply on either side of that fence!
Hey doc, how are you doing? Oh, here we go, a fable, this ought to be fun.


"Sitting On The Fence

There was an incredibly large group of people assembled.
OK

On one side of the group stood a man, Jesus.
OK, I too saw him as just a man, a philosopher of sorts.

On the other side of the group stood another man, Satan.
Incorrect! According to your own scriptures Satan was a fallen angel, not a man!

Separating them, running through the group was a fence.
Bullshit because he wasn't a man!

The scene set, both Jesus and Satan began calling to the people in the group
and, one by one, each having made up his or her mind, each went to either
Jesus or Satan.

This kept going, and eventually Jesus had gathered around him a group of
people from the larger crowds, as did Satan. But one man joined neither
group. He climbed the fence that was there and just sat down on it. Then
Jesus and his people left and disappeared. So too did Satan and
his people.

And the man on the fence sat alone.

As this man sat there, Satan came back, and appeared to be looking for
something that he'd lost. The man said, "Have you lost something?" Satan
looked straight at him and replied, "No, there you are. Come with me."

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
Can you see that I need not address the rest of your little fable, because of the LIE that derailed all that followed it! That is, the lie, according to your own scriptures! ;-)
And that's why you are wrong about what it was that you believed you saw. You can't even keep your so called facts straight according to scripture. This is also why the belief in a false god is so dangerous, once one travels down the road of "make believe" they tend to go crazy, creating all kinds of nonsense. Even that which disproves the original nonsense! Case in point!
In other words, a liar always creates so many lies, that the web he's weaved, obscures much of the truth he once may have known!



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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat May 20, 2017 8:39 pm

uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:27 am
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:53 am
I see it the same way, but strict atheists, by definition, see that there can't be a god, but that's what I like about you, you're actually reasonable.

Here you go:

atheist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


No mention of the possibility of a god whatsoever.
Is this a definition of "strict atheists"?
It's very simple. Look at these two sentences:
OK, let's take them apart uwot. But know before we start, that I see you as one of the brightest here in this forum. Ginkgo is another one! There are others, but I won't spend the time to list them all!

1. I do not believe there is a god.
It's ambiguous! So I'll delineate with commas so as to make each case clear:

First, since to know is, belief made certain, it could mean that they 'know' there is a god; they do not believe, so what's left? Knowing!
(I do not, believe, there is a god.)
(I do not believe, there is a god.)

Second, it could mean that their belief is uncertain of a gods existence.
(I do not believe there is a god.)

Third, it could mean that they believe in multiple gods.
(I do not believe there is, a god.)

Same exact words, in the same exact order, simply accented differently! Verbal inflections would allow one to know which of these are meant. Which is difficult in a text based forum. Commas would in fact help a bit, but surely more words could make it exacting.
So you see, it's ambiguous! Not enough information is contained within it, so as to be certain what it meant!


2. I believe there is no god.
Here it is pretty cut and dry, pretty much exacting. Again, I'll place commas so as to delineate the parts.

They are saying that their belief does not include a god, which does not necessarily include knowing, meaning that they are not committed to knowing, rather only believing!
(I believe there is no god.)
(I believe, there is no god.)

Even if one placed commas differently, it would still only lead to one conclusion:
(I believe, there is, no god.)
(I believe there is, no god.)

Pretty cut and dry! Not ambiguous at all!

If you can tell the difference, bravo, you are cleverer than many of the theists on this forum.
Of course I am! I'm more cleverer than many on this forum, though I don't always show it, and they are often incapable of sensing it. ;-)

Since we're being strict: strictly speaking, all anyone has to say to qualify as an atheist is 1. There is no strictness in atheism that requires anyone to insist there is no god.
Your definition, and that's fine!

If you simply don't believe it, congratulations you're in the club.
Not exactly, because I don't 'believe' in 'their god, and I'm no atheist!' I believe that "their god" has been completely worn out due to the progress of human time. That it's only obvious, to those that are educated, especially in the humanities, the reason why today's theists, long dead predecessors, made up that crap in the first place, that today is being clung to so ignorantly feverishly. I'm agnostic, because I entertain both possibilities, not "their god," surely, rather the possibility of a mindful intentioned creator, or our chance fruition, due to the nature of the universe. And I 'know' that neither side can 'know,' nor that I can't 'know' which of the sides I entertain, is absolutely the truth of the matter.

I'm sure you're well aware that my earlier bit, about the true creator telling me, that their knowing their god existed, was false, was just my way of showing them, the house of cards their diatribe lived in, right? A pyramid scheme of lies! So that means that I've only lied twice in this forum. But it did put their so called "knowing," in it's proper place, which was in fact the point.


By the same token, a theist is not compelled to provide any evidence that there is a god; it is quite enough simply to believe in one. The exception, I would say, is that if theists try to impose their 'god given' rules, they really need to prove there is a god.
Not pertinent to this argument, as they were saying they "KNOW" there is a god! And they can't say that, without providing proof! Right?

Agnosticism is generally taken to mean 'Don't know, don't care', but as you are keen on definitions,
Without exacting definitions, no one can speak, or be understood to have spoken, "clearly," at all! As ones differentiated meanings cannot necessarily be grasped out of thin air. It would be nice if they could be. Hey, aren't you and I currently combating that very thing, (misconception?)

here's one for agnosticism:
"Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe. Consequently, agnosticism puts aside not only the greater part of popular theology, but also the greater part of anti-theology." That was written by Thomas Huxley, and if anyone knows what agnosticism means, it's him, because he invented the word.
But not the idea! I thank you for that, my friend! I had no idea that he existed or that he coined the term. Of course he had much help, as the ideology goes way back in time, even as far as Socrates!

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
There's nothing you can say that I can't get my head around if I care to!
That's the spirit. Try again then.
No need for that comment, it's your testosterone speaking. I need not try again! See my dissection of your two sentences above to understand why!

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:14 pm
You do know what a joke is, right?
Either you haven't read much of my stuff, or you don't.
I was telling you that it was a joke, with an edge on it, "sarcastically" (my testosterone this time). Not that sensing jokes in a text based forum was in any way easy! Because it's not! They require all parties being aware of all the parts of the joke, with the exact same perspective on those parts. Not easy at all, as there is no necessary accounting for ones perspective or knowledge, without verbal inflections and visual cuing. And even then, it can be difficult for one to "get" the joke!
Often I speak of the differences between us, that many people don't fully understand.

And some people laugh at my commas, HA! As HQ would say! Thanks HQ!

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat May 20, 2017 9:13 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:27 pm
thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:57 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am

You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.
While Christianity is the focus of the story, the meaning is much broader and speaks to all aspects of life. Make a choice and move on.
Spreading a bit broader, what the story means is that in the dualistic, physical realm the devil owns the double yellow stripes on the highway of life and will claim that motorcycle lane in-between; will claim it with the crushing wheels of a heavy eighteen-wheeler. Any mortal putting along in a little Hyundai or wobbling on a bicycle is free to dispute ownership of the double yellow at the moment of truth, for whatever truth it will provide in life soon to be over. Fortunately for the prudent, the big truck has bright headlights so no one stays in the lane out of ignorance, but out of a need corrupted into evil as measured against life. Or, the bright headlights of the debble are missed because they come up from behind, and the mortal who is slower than the flow of traffic forgets to look over the shoulder now and then, and gets flattened on the double yellow. You think they would see the shadows cast ahead, in their path. Perhaps, the sun was too bright and overpowered the devil's headlights, while the biker was arrogant to claim that lane under those conditions.

:roll:
It means absolutely nothing. It's a dumb assed simpleton story for simpletons, written by a simpleton Christian. It's just another fairytale about mindlessness. FYI the fence I sit on is of my own, if any thief decides to lay claim to it there shall certainly be a lawsuit aimed at their unfortunate ass. I fear no god of man or his Satan, nor his demons or anything else his simpleton mind can dream up!

It's a no brainer people, that any one man can only choose one road. That some choose road A, some road B, some road C and some all the other billions of roads there are. That not one of those men can backtrack to choose another road. That's not what's in question. The question is which road is the correct road? And there is no taking any road, as the correct road, for granted. So you choose yours and I'll chose mine, and we'll see which leads to Scotland before which, regardless of any true loves!

Because there are no high or low roads in life, as they all end at exactly the same destination.

P.S. I feel sorry for anyone that believes in any story such as the one we're currently talking about, seriously! And while I appreciate doc for sharing the one about his church college, and what he believes he witnessed, I feel sorry for one that believes that it was anything other than a human created dramatic performance, Seriously!!

Edit: Typo
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Sun May 21, 2017 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by ForCruxSake » Sat May 20, 2017 9:56 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 1:57 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:43 am
thedoc wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am
"Sitting On The Fence

"But," said the man, "I sat on the fence. I chose neither you nor Him.
"That's okay," said Satan. "I own the fence."

Author Unknown"
You've shown us this before, doc. I do not think it means what you think it means. For all its folksiness, it is cynical attack on dissent; the message being that anyone who does not uncritically accept the rule of the church will burn in hell. That is not nice.
While Christianity is the focus of the story, the meaning is much broader and speaks to all aspects of life. Make a choice and move on.
I have a feeling that uwot's right, doc. The idea is that those who can't decide belong with the Devil. The fence is his because those who believe in Christ would never have built it, let alone sit on it. The moral of the story is believe or be damned.

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