Hello

Tell us a little about yourself.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Hello

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:56 pm

In other words you are both insane.

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Lacewing
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Re: Hello

Post by Lacewing » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 am
[...the usual endless blah, blah, blah about himself and his projections...]
Do you recognize your self-absorption and how it is a hindrance to seeing anything that you aren't superimposing your self-absorption onto? Do you WANT to see anything else?

Do people become crazier the more they try to reconcile and define everything about their experience... rather than simply letting it be and letting it pass and not making such a big deal and a big story out of it?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Hello

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:28 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pm
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 am
[...the usual endless blah, blah, blah about himself and his projections...]
Do you recognize your self-absorption and how it is a hindrance to seeing anything that you aren't superimposing your self-absorption onto? Do you WANT to see anything else?

Do people become crazier the more they try to reconcile and define everything about their experience... rather than simply letting it be and letting it pass and not making such a big deal and a big story out of it?

Yes.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Hello

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:30 pm

We pretty much have unit cohesion down since du Picq (last philosopher of note in Europe, both he and Nietzsche faced off in the 1870 war, we lost a good man, gained a idiot, Europe suffered for it in the end). It comes down to the awareness of issues, identifying when they are occurring (we struggle the most with this stage, diagnostic logic in our society might as well as be labeled as still in the dark ages) and finding solutions. We've mapped a great many out, at least in the US.... for example, the US in Iraq was the first war I know of where rape wasn't wide spread. It was a absolute rarity, happened more within our forces than in civilians, but even then relatively rare. My unit only had three known rapists while I was in, one was a child molester nabbed soon after he arrived to the unit (seemed a nice guy), but we have a very networked and responsive MP force that doesn't hesitate to bring down the hammer fast on even the hint of such issues. The other was a guy bugging out right before deployment, he intentionally sought to get himself arrested (a unknown phenomena to civilians, but in hindsight known to veterans seeing this happen again and again right before a deployment, not something intentionally suppressed, just nobody has sufficiently identifies it to the point that theorists (usually Colonel rank) can come to grips. I recall higher command was more weirded out right before this period, seeing it coming, not knowing who would snap. They guy who snapped showed no issues, was stellar in training, a guy from the Dominican Republic. He decided to take a car (white, can't even recall if it was his, borrowed, or stolen) and started pulling people on the highway over.... young women, and would talk into his shoulder as if he had a radio.... tell the women to get out, bent them over the hood to search them, then raped them. The final victim getting raped was on the hood of her car, staring through the windshield at her mother. He got either 50 or 70 years. Other guys just got arrested doing something that was harmless in comparison, he was the worst. I think about him a lot, we know the lions in training tend to be the biggest cowards in combat. He was a small guy, always surprising when he did stuff, greatly applauded. All I got to work off in terms of him, I never really trusted him, he seemed impulsive and not quite right.... like he liked the army too much. I don't trust that in individuals. Third case of rape happen right after I got out of the army, like a few days later.... a private got angry, and raped his male Sargent, his team leader. Both went AWOL afterwards. Obviously as a guy you can't be seen as commanding respect after getting raped by a private, in the airborne infantry, you are expected to fight and kill with your hands if need be. We aren't stupid, know the absurdity of it, and some guys are just naturally better, tank not having anything to do with it, and he was obviously a victim, we felt for him.... army announced it wouldn't charge him with going AWOL for leaving, I don't know what happened.

This only happened when at home, at our base in Alaska. Once deployed, we didn't have just one Colonel, one General, but a deeply woven web of support that systematically guided us from Kuwait to Baghdad to our base on the Euphrates, and they premeditated every expected action we could have. A lot of our unit cracked, a lot of scumbags caused issues abusing this, but even that was considered, and the fallout was contained. We got to the point where we just didn't like one another, especially after Bush announced the surge, and we got extended. Marriages failed left and right, triangle of death went nuts. But.... it didn't result in a single rape, even one merely rumored. There was a political trial, targeted our scouts (they got framed, military does often make show trials to appease locals for political reasons) but even that was calculated and contained in terms of fallout. Very precise, the higher echelons of command knew every trigger to pull in response, knew absolutely what they did not want to occur, and kept it at a bare minimum, or none existent.

Some areas exist that are problematic, but I know essentially what it is, and will nail it fully eventually, enough for it to resolve it someday in the US Military, other ones as well, as well as prisons, etc.... any place where you have martial/penial levels of command structure. This however is a side endeavor, bigger issues of philosophy exist.... but consider how small the concern of rape is compared to the much larger world of factors they have to control, and make men perform in a unit. It is a wide, wide ocean, and a unit is constantly being stressed, worked down. You can only get so much out of them. You gotta prioritize it. No given military in any given war will look alike. But yes, it can be controlled, and it will stump the men afterwards once they read in other Wars men would cut ears off as trophies, or rape, etc. It didn't occur to us, and it wasn't due to culture. Wasn't due to education, or superior values. That stuff doesn't matter once men get stressed out and turn aggressive, primal. They made absolutely certain it didn't.

As to your Schitzophrenia, you seem a high functioning thinker. Over on ilovephiloophy.com a user who goes by the name of WWIIIAngry has it as well, but is likewise high functioning. He wrote a book on his experiences. I suggest you track it down. We have at least one other on this forum, but he is not high functioning and a tad bit on the stupid side. His momma dropped him as a child on his head..... at the top of the stairs and he hit every step head first on the way down. You'll figure it out who I am talking about.

Down Syndrome, it is a problem less of genetics (Iceland will soon realize this) than in how the body processes cholesterol, which governs the symmetry of the body while the child is in development. Mayo Clinic has produced a number of papers documenting this. It isn't too different from Williams Syndrome. Both have chromosomal defects, but it has more to do with fetal development. They aren't lost causes in either case either, not fully lost at least, they can make moderate gains.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome

You notice these people as a child, told not to stare. I try to learn them in a mere glance. Some aren't so obvious facially, but show patterns in deficient thinking.

I don't subscribe to the idea that there are no mental disorders, that they are culturally created, many do exist. But I don't think the loss of impairment is necessarily that catestrophic. If you have Down syndrome, you fuck like a rabbit but are sterile (special care homes for such people regular have tarded orgies, remember this next time one bags your groceries, he has better sex and with more people than you). I've seen some take on highly complex jobs, including being a artillery officer. That isn't easy, calculating the trajectories when the standard methods the enlisted use go to bust, fixing the machine well enough to keep it functioning under stressful weather. World is in a rush to apply eugenics to solve problems rather than embracing these people, and learn to fix the problems. Our medicine won't advance to solve these issues if we nail everything via abortion. It is a nasty ethical problem long term, societies willing to struggle through will figure out the solutions, while parasitic societies will adopt less complex ethics as part of their national tradition, won't have the cultural mandate to seek improvements due to being net importers of such ideas, and in the future when crunch time comes in a unforeseen dark age or calamity, won't know how to approach things, and a revolutionary push to reform might not be realistic, being a pressure great enough to snap whatever legitimacy their central authority has left.

A Confucian or Christian society willing to tackle the social issues, while researching the grand problem medically and not just abortively, has the best chance of being the ethical basis future civilizations will take from, if for no other reason than because we are the ones they will evolve out of, the others systems dying off over time from the stresses that regularly shake a civilization. Take the US recently, we shrugged off 4/5 major hurricanes. That would of sunk most states. Took us centuries to figure out how to do this, and it really started to grow in focus after Katrina and Bush started reforms. Trump inherited a excellent system, we still suck at islands (when I lived in Hawaii, the philosophical community was very aware less than a week supply of food exists on the island, a blockade or serious hurricane could do far worst than Puerto Rico). You keep with these systems, build up the capacity of the state to respond, to maintain itself, and the people under and through these stresses. Bad times await us, but you gotta have the mindset to solve roadblocks in the mind in advance, before problems pop up in the first place. A just society sets out to tackle these issues.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Hello

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:31 pm

I'm still not having sex with you VT, you just need to find solace in Lacewing.

Plato's Rock
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Re: Hello

Post by Plato's Rock » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:56 pm
In other words you are both insane.
Yep. I've found that when it comes to "sanity", it is often those who cling to it the most that are the less "insightful ones", and it is but mere degrees to being "insane".
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Do people become crazier the more they try to reconcile and define everything about their experience... rather than simply letting it be and letting it pass and not making such a big deal and a big story out of it?
Probably, but if the alternative "letting it be" was the best way to operate...might as well sit around in an opium/opiate haze, and just let "life" drift by, eh? Wait, that's a new and upcoming problem in America! Painkillers! Let's wage War on Sensibility, and general cognition now! Got the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, the "guerrilla insurrections" on banking, gender identity, political identity, and everything else, so why not sit down, shut up, and tune out too!

Other than that, yes.
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:30 pm
It didn't occur to us, and it wasn't due to culture. Wasn't due to education, or superior values. That stuff doesn't matter once men get stressed out and turn aggressive, primal. They made absolutely certain it didn't.
And therein's the rub, at the base we're nothing more than apes who think we're "civilized" because we don't entirely crap over ourselves immediately. Culture, as Nietzsche would have it, is what makes us who we are. The culture of the church, the social upbringing..., and the whole smattering of how to belong and where to belong in a social order. We put more faith in the edifices we construct with our minds (albeit some of them do work), and cultural workings than in the ability to assess for ourselves. Although that's a little paradoxical, we're "animals" of some degree, but we'd like to think we're more than that.
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:30 pm
I don't subscribe to the idea that there are no mental disorders, that they are culturally created, many do exist. But I don't think the loss of impairment is necessarily that catestrophic.
Let's say there's subtle differences in "humans" like there are in "dog breeds" (politically incorrect, but I'm running with it). Is it natural for a doberman to be a little more pent up and aggressive over say a golden lab? I won't go as far to say there's no mental disorders, but I also won't say that they aren't "culturally created". Not too mention the cultural trends towards segmentation for categorization. The Myer-Brigs/Kiersey, Astrological signs, PUA-"Alpha Male" breakdown of social "castes", classification of "sane/insane". It all seems to me to be a way to determine what is "safe/unsafe", or how to interact with the world, and get what you "want" out of it. The Christian mindset, or what have you is simply an umbrella term for such behavior.

Case in point, Schizophrenia, according to the DSM-V, there is currently no radio-logical, laboratory, or psychometric tests for the "disorder", or condition. In other words, if you have a delusion (like say you don't think there's a god because God belief is the norm), you hallucinate (even if it is caused by Insomnia, or inadvertently being awake 90+ hrs due to stress), get a little disorganized (say due to sleep deprivation), a Daze (say because of microsleeps in the brain)..., and reduced emotional expression. You're a great candidate for Schizophrenia! Especially, if the Doctor doesn't like you, or take time to find "deeper causes". Treating the symptoms, and not the problems.

I'd argue that it seems like a cultural creation, but maybe it's just me. And I'm truly daft, bonkers, crazy. I mean one of the clear symptoms of the disorder is "lack of insight", so if I argue I don't have it....I still have it. Fun enough?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Hello

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 pm

Plato's Rock wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:47 pm
I've been diagnosed with Schizophrenia if that matters at all. Been dealing with that diagnosis for about 7 years now. A little after I started posing "thought experiments" to myself, and questioning why I thought/acted the way I did. Along with questioning why society is set up the way it is. First questions were; "Why do we celebrate Columbus Day, and why is it a Federal Holiday where the civil servants get it off, but no one else does? Not students, and other personal?

I was going off to become an aerospace engineer, and an overall rocket scientist in Alabama (went to UAH) for a year. Had a psychotic break due to about a year of social isolation (I'm from Minnesota). Along with various incidents like car accidents (3 of them in a year), campus shooting narrowly avoided, and other stressful shenanigans. Ended up not sleeping (insomnia), and what may be equivalent to a case of PTSD.

A lot of it probably is due and thanks to a childhood where we were pretty much raised "like marines". If one of you fucks up, all of you get punished. And everything has to be done absolutely right the first time. No yelling, no screaming, no crying, no speaking louder than a whisper (essentially). No hiccuping, burping, or any other "child" behaviors essentially. If not, you're getting yelled/screamed at (almost like a DI would), and having to move and re-stack a cord of wood everytime there's a foul up, or you're "not busy enough". And no incompetency!

I guess that would almost imply that I've had ~20 years of "civilian basic". Although things have changed since then, but only because I've been pushing back. So I don't know, you seem like a cool guy and you know a lot.

I'm still trying to find my niche in life, and find a gainful way to participate/give back to society. And still pick brains because I don't know how to interact (still always don't) in civil society because of an overly authoritarian childhood. I almost, keyword almost, enlisted in the Marines about a year ago thinking, "Hey it may be like home, but simpler". Had the recruitment papers, and was actively being recruited for O.C.S, and "promised" a position as a V-22 pilot. And then just simply decided, no. It's too odd to be getting an email that's half blacked over with watermarks, and to be missing about half of the recruitment package.

...in addition to the mental health stuff. I realized that it wasn't meant for me. I can respect anyone who does it though, just not for me.

If you want to talk physics, chemistry, or science anytime, I'd be game for it. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts about unit cohesion (morale, and the like).
For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.

The out of the box thinking, that most creative people have, is partially due to their ability to transcend certain intellectual and social cultural norms. If schizophrenia is "the problem" you have...embrace it, there are worse things than losing one's mind temporarily.

Who knows...maybe you will come up with some brilliant thought that will change the world for the better.

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Lacewing
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Re: Hello

Post by Lacewing » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm

Plato's Rock wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pm
Do people become crazier the more they try to reconcile and define everything about their experience... rather than simply letting it be and letting it pass and not making such a big deal and a big story out of it?
Probably, but if the alternative "letting it be" was the best way to operate...might as well sit around in an opium/opiate haze, and just let "life" drift by, eh? Wait, that's a new and upcoming problem in America! Painkillers! Let's wage War on Sensibility, and general cognition now! Got the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, the "guerrilla insurrections" on banking, gender identity, political identity, and everything else, so why not sit down, shut up, and tune out too!

Other than that, yes.
So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze? :D

I agree with what you said to Veggie about there being mere degrees between sanity and insanity... and it's all accessible to anyone. Brilliant people may be more susceptible because they may continually try to reconcile and define... using limited human awareness and knowledge to try to "control" within a vast realm that's way beyond human understanding and capability. It's like three-dimensional beings trying to define significance and rules within a much greater-dimensional space. That could make anybody feel crazy.

Our linear-thinking really limits us too. Our "paths" are a story. They can be for entertainment... they don't have to lock us into anything which we might then superimpose over all else. Going to the extremes we perceive is simply one possibility of countless.

So what would it mean if all states of consciousness are accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime -- and why wouldn't that be possible? Views could be seen or experienced from any position, depending on a being's openness or interest in such, right? Similarly, there wouldn't need to be a story in order for there to be high-level awareness and functioning, right?

The power of the story might be what drives people crazy. :) Children don't have a big story. They know how to "pretend" and have fun believing in it while they build and create and explore. It's as if adult humans forgot that we simply belong here to explore and play -- and there's no reason that we must feel insane about any of it.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Hello

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:31 pm

There no degrees of insanity, but certainly types. I don't want people thinking of it in shades.

Take for example chronic serial killers. Some might very well have a rational reason for doing so. They are clearly sane, just stuck them as the proper way to live from argument X. I've never quite got the logic of doing it for fame, but every damn time we have a mass killer with uncertain motivations, some people around me bring that up as a reason, insisting he isn't insane (and nobody says he isn't, it is assumed). I get uncomfortable because the fame aspect never initially enters my mindset in the beginning, and I start questioning the sanity and motivations of the people pushing this as clear logic, as it says a lot about them. I look at terrorism, crime, and insanity first, then after a while might root around for old Greek reasons like fame and notoriety.

Given I can't properly type this motivation from lacking case subjects who are truely sane with extensive biographies on them, it is a aspect of sanity/insanity I know little about. I can't proclaim it to be a sane act by logic extended from other known thinking patterns in other people who seem sane, or from attention whores like Coco Chanel or some shit. I have a great many voids in being able to diagnose phenomena, and don't ever expect even as a old man with great medical advances to fully grasp every mental phenomena. That's what specialists are for. I'll always lack the ability to identify traits I don't know about, or much understand.

Now as to schitzophrenia, oh we got a lot. Notice I called you high functioning. I also referred to WWIIIAngry as high functioning as well. Well, we got a boatload of people so the fuck NOT high functioning. One guy where I live likes to do stuff like run out in the street and walk down the yellow of the street, holding signs during rush hour traffic. He thinks the cops are after him (cops have picked up on this, and reinforce this belief so he will stop pestering them) and thought a vanity dollar (was a bookmark) of a million was a promissory note that our local library had to cash in for him. Bastard broke my lawnmower, ran off.

Hopefully a massive gulf lies between you and him. If they accurately identified you as schitzophrenic, they you are the same type (and more than one type exists) and only then it becomes a matter of degrees of magnitude. I sit on the autistic scale at the upper most end of high performers, high enough I've managed to control most of the traits. You'll have to have a very keen eye to detect it in me, but I definitely sit in it.

We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person, we form from embryos who are constructed out of chromosomal maps. Gives and takes emerge. This is fine. We diagnose disorders more for the extreme, predictable traits, especially the ones medicines can treat in that identified subclass but not in others. If you can treat it, and show a change towards health, and it can be showed it wasn't the placebo effect, especially with fMRI scans backing it, then you likely have evidence for a real disorder.

This being said, your belief that it is cultural isn't unique, and I know others with it. I don't know of any with a deep interest in mental functions who hold this belief, one had a awareness of psychology as deep as the golden dawn, and would provide me links of people in Papau New Guinea with disappearing disorders or something out of china due to a primitive psychological healthcare in that country (half is voodoo for them)..... but I do believe in many cases a firm case for mental disorders exist. That being said, I'm not a fan of modern psychology, and don't rely on medical text books. I like typology, and try to build up my own systems, and as a classicist I have a bent to looking to the past for examples. I never would seek out to become a medical diagnostic, because I'm more interested in the theoretical, philosophical side of theory. I'm more interested in how society works, and this awareness certainly helps. But it is indeed good to keep in mind that it is hardly a full proof system, and some schools of thought are simply rotten, and that even rotten and discredited systems can have gems to them.

Just one of the things you learn to deal with in philosophy over time.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Hello

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:14 am

Anyone who writes comments that long on an internet forum (and expects people to read them) is several trailers short of a trailerpark in my book.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Hello

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:09 am

Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

Plato's Rock
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Re: Hello

Post by Plato's Rock » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:19 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 pm

For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.

The out of the box thinking, that most creative people have, is partially due to their ability to transcend certain intellectual and social cultural norms. If schizophrenia is "the problem" you have...embrace it, there are worse things than losing one's mind temporarily.

Who knows...maybe you will come up with some brilliant thought that will change the world for the better.
True about the survival mechanism, for awhile there it seemed like the universe was intentionally trying to kill me, or at least get me to kill myself. I didn't mention the other bits I was dealing with during said time, but there was definitely other things too. Way too much going on the past decade that may be considered extreme stressors. The least of which I mentioned (5 deaths, and a cancer scare +more!). Regardless, that's the catch isn't it? Come up with something brilliant, and you're not an immediate casualty of life, huh?
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm
So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze? :D
Hey! I thought I was operating on the Golden mean here! And besides I didn't apply a qualifier to those thoughts of, "The Alternative". 8) Everything other than words, was read into as a emotive per you. The "Post-Modern Author is Dead!". I'm just scratching symbols here, in one of my apparently grand schizophrenic delusions! :D
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm
I agree with what you said to Veggie about there being mere degrees between sanity and insanity... and it's all accessible to anyone. Brilliant people may be more susceptible because they may continually try to reconcile and define... using limited human awareness and knowledge to try to "control" within a vast realm that's way beyond human understanding and capability. It's like three-dimensional beings trying to define significance and rules within a much greater-dimensional space. That could make anybody feel crazy.

Our linear-thinking really limits us too. Our "paths" are a story. They can be for entertainment... they don't have to lock us into anything which we might then superimpose over all else. Going to the extremes we perceive is simply one possibility of countless.

So what would it mean if all states of consciousness are accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime -- and why wouldn't that be possible? Views could be seen or experienced from any position, depending on a being's openness or interest in such, right? Similarly, there wouldn't need to be a story in order for there to be high-level awareness and functioning, right?

The power of the story might be what drives people crazy. :) Children don't have a big story. They know how to "pretend" and have fun believing in it while they build and create and explore. It's as if adult humans forgot that we simply belong here to explore and play -- and there's no reason that we must feel insane about any of it.
Cognitive Boxes. Boxes as far as the eye(s) (or whatever sensing function) can grok! Is it the brilliant people who do so, or are they brilliant because they do so? Aka, if Neural computing is based of a brain architecture, and it can operate in parallel, why don't we do so with our "linear-thinking"? Can't we have multiple streams of thought going, and cross streams whenever? (Synesthesia?) It's just for quality we have to focus, on a linear train?

And there's another forum I've been posted on here; viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20173&start=45 where I think it'd be proper to ask, "Is it our language that causes us to think, 'linearly'"?
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:31 pm
There no degrees of insanity, but certainly types. I don't want people thinking of it in shades.
....
Hopefully a massive gulf lies between you and him. If they accurately identified you as schitzophrenic, they you are the same type (and more than one type exists) and only then it becomes a matter of degrees of magnitude. I sit on the autistic scale at the upper most end of high performers, high enough I've managed to control most of the traits. You'll have to have a very keen eye to detect it in me, but I definitely sit in it.
....
We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person, we form from embryos who are constructed out of chromosomal maps. Gives and takes emerge. This is fine. We diagnose disorders more for the extreme, predictable traits, especially the ones medicines can treat in that identified subclass but not in others. If you can treat it, and show a change towards health, and it can be showed it wasn't the placebo effect, especially with fMRI scans backing it, then you likely have evidence for a real disorder.
You sort of wiff-waffle'd between the original premise; "There are no degrees of insanity", and "We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person". This is exactly why that "Blind Thought Experiment" of mine started to prove tricky to myself. If we're all impaired, in some way, how can we know if there's an impairment limit/degree...if it's not shaded? You spoke of a local resident (of which I'm no where near similar to as far as I know), but how can you know so? There's a lot of assumptions behind some of those judgments.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Hello

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:04 am

Naturally assumptions behind judgments, hence etiology.

But no, I didn't waffe, look at how I qualified it. I said within a type you can have shades, but these are within a type. I can have for example, a series of German Sheppard all slightly smaller or larger (a quality) and they are all German sheppards, but I will never claim a exceptionally small breed, such as a Chihuahua, can be like a normal German Sheppard. Might get a dwarf German Sheppard, but that is a exception. No competent dog breeder will go along with the idea that all dogs are essentially the same, and it is culturally imposed differences.

But I would also point out like Jack London would, nurture over nature can have a profound effect on the violent deposition of a dog. Humans are a considerable step over animals in how we can transform ourselves, and I think we give into a diagnosis way too quick, almost in a fatalistic fashion. Most can improve.

And as I said, low functioning. He is my town's most notorious example. He also has a buddy with a similar condition that involves paranoia but isn't schitzophrenia, but the two together do some fantastically stupid things together. More than one variant of schitzophrenia floating around. I generally understand it as a reduced ability to process reasonable thoughts, you still can, but bizarre solutions everyone else picks up on, you wouldn't notice is weird. I don't always see hallucinations in these people, I see it in the use of logic. But in higher functioning thinkers, this is barely apparent. I would have to sit down, type your personality, get used to your behavior, and watch you accomplish tasks. In a philosophy group, during a debate, I tend to be quiet in the beginning because I'm pretending to be impressed with everything being said respectfully, what I'm really doing am just learning how people are processing data, reacting, asserting.

And I make very, very little use of the DSM series. That is for medical diagnosis, to fulfill the needs of a court to determine competence of witnesses and defendants (never ever forget modern psychiatry is fundamentally built not around the pursuit of health, or biologically accurate diagnosis first and foremost, but rather in service of the government, it makes and breaks them, bread and butter of the industry) first, and secondly to set a standard for medical boards to go off on when you get a charged with malpractice or incompetency. Most are careful not to dig too deep, however empathetic they are, and 99% of psychiatrists do not want to take principle stances that get them negative notoriety, so they will go with whatever political flow that is current in a society. In countries where homosexuality is illegal or generally opposed, they jump on that safe bandwagon, and in countries where the politics are liberal PC, they will talk down to people suggesting otherwise, and will even lead the crusade. They as a group only do this when it is safe. Psychology for the most part has been upsurped from philosophy in these areas (look up Wilhelm Reich, Sweden) and it has been systematized. You won't find in DSM 5 years of experience mixed with gut feeling that a good psychiatrist has. They are looking for a diagnosis that results in treatments and medicines. If you already have a diagnosis, it isn't really that great for you. Doesn't tell you much, you just dig deeper and deeper, recommend biographies, or if it is your cup of tea, groups of people similar to you in diagnosis. You'll likely feel insulted seeing what some on the low end of the spectrum do behaviorally, saying you are not like them. Problem is, we are all like them, in some way on occasion. Just they aren't doing to well on most occasions.

Better I would suggest, is just accept it, move on with life, improving yourself. If you find it absolutely doesn't fit you (the diagnosis) you can get as many new opinions as you want. It isn't something anyone can diagnose over the net. But I think you may be more worried about the effect it has in being placed on you, effecting who you are. Nobody stays in absolute health, in the blossom of youth forever. We age, shit happens. You take a injury, gain a syndrome, but none the less try to keep your head above the water.

I recommend a lot (more and more these days) for people to read the works of Sextus Empericus, he was a Roman skeptic author.... we live in a era where skeptical thinking is fast dying off, faster in academia than anywhere else. I like to get to the root of ideas in history, and work my way foreward. He covered the early evolution of the medical schools in Ancient Greece. It is a good place to start if you are studying yourself, and are concerned with how others diagnose things. Whenever I isolate and develop a theory on a cognitive complex, it is from the perspective not of medical psychology, but of ethics. Like the Sardanapulas Complex, the Savonarola Complex.... nobody is ever intended to be able to use these diagnosis in a court, and don't want a psychiatrist ever touching it. I'm diagnosing not the lack of health, but a behavioral phenomena stemming from the politics of a state within the Kyklos cycle, that stems from a disorder (sometimes identifies, sometimes not, sometimes not even assumed, can just be a bad mix of personality traits and ideology, wrong place, wrong time). We currently lack a science that aims for this level of the study of the mind, it leaps across many professions, and not all are contained in the university system. So I don't always have the most respect for people going off the DSM, trying to impress me with a background from Duke University, etc. I'm interested in their ideas, but I have no intention of sitting down with a Mao or a Hitler, asking them about their childhood, prescribing them tum tums and a good nights rest. I'm more interested in the hurricane force winds that occasionally smash civilization. You may of seen a awkward first attempt by psychiologists to do this, in going on TV, against their medical ethics, to diagnose Trump with some imaginary syndromes. Nobody would accept being diagnosed that way. I'm more interested in reforms in how the Philosophy of History are preformed, to built a ethical framework from. It is needed, but nobody quite knows how to do it today, whenever it is attempted today the experts look like overstepping assclowns. Our science of mind still remains fragmentary and isn't up to the standard we would all prefer.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Hello

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 pm

Plato's Rock wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:19 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 pm

For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.

The out of the box thinking, that most creative people have, is partially due to their ability to transcend certain intellectual and social cultural norms. If schizophrenia is "the problem" you have...embrace it, there are worse things than losing one's mind temporarily.

Who knows...maybe you will come up with some brilliant thought that will change the world for the better.
True about the survival mechanism, for awhile there it seemed like the universe was intentionally trying to kill me, or at least get me to kill myself. I didn't mention the other bits I was dealing with during said time, but there was definitely other things too. Way too much going on the past decade that may be considered extreme stressors.

The least of which I mentioned (5 deaths, and a cancer scare +more!).
Been through, and going through it now with loved ones, that so you are preaching to the choir.

Regardless, that's the catch isn't it? Come up with something brilliant, and you're not an immediate casualty of life, huh?
Haha, it is a horrifying fact of our times...maybe a beautiful one also. Look at it this way, modern philosophers are much like explorers. We role across the vast sees of ignorance looking for "new lands" in which to raise our thoughts. We observe many things along our journey whether it be demons or angels, there is always something new to be found. Knowledge appears to be the last real frontier of our times...maybe it is has always been the only one worth pursuing.
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm
So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze? :D
Hey! I thought I was operating on the Golden mean here! And besides I didn't apply a qualifier to those thoughts of, "The Alternative". 8) Everything other than words, was read into as a emotive per you. The "Post-Modern Author is Dead!". I'm just scratching symbols here, in one of my apparently grand schizophrenic delusions! :D
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm
I agree with what you said to Veggie about there being mere degrees between sanity and insanity... and it's all accessible to anyone. Brilliant people may be more susceptible because they may continually try to reconcile and define... using limited human awareness and knowledge to try to "control" within a vast realm that's way beyond human understanding and capability. It's like three-dimensional beings trying to define significance and rules within a much greater-dimensional space. That could make anybody feel crazy.

Our linear-thinking really limits us too. Our "paths" are a story. They can be for entertainment... they don't have to lock us into anything which we might then superimpose over all else. Going to the extremes we perceive is simply one possibility of countless.

So what would it mean if all states of consciousness are accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime -- and why wouldn't that be possible? Views could be seen or experienced from any position, depending on a being's openness or interest in such, right? Similarly, there wouldn't need to be a story in order for there to be high-level awareness and functioning, right?

The power of the story might be what drives people crazy. :) Children don't have a big story. They know how to "pretend" and have fun believing in it while they build and create and explore. It's as if adult humans forgot that we simply belong here to explore and play -- and there's no reason that we must feel insane about any of it.
Cognitive Boxes. Boxes as far as the eye(s) (or whatever sensing function) can grok! Is it the brilliant people who do so, or are they brilliant because they do so? Aka, if Neural computing is based of a brain architecture, and it can operate in parallel, why don't we do so with our "linear-thinking"? Can't we have multiple streams of thought going, and cross streams whenever? (Synesthesia?) It's just for quality we have to focus, on a linear train?

And there's another forum I've been posted on here; viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20173&start=45 where I think it'd be proper to ask, "Is it our language that causes us to think, 'linearly'"?
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:31 pm
There no degrees of insanity, but certainly types. I don't want people thinking of it in shades.
....
Hopefully a massive gulf lies between you and him. If they accurately identified you as schitzophrenic, they you are the same type (and more than one type exists) and only then it becomes a matter of degrees of magnitude. I sit on the autistic scale at the upper most end of high performers, high enough I've managed to control most of the traits. You'll have to have a very keen eye to detect it in me, but I definitely sit in it.
....
We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person, we form from embryos who are constructed out of chromosomal maps. Gives and takes emerge. This is fine. We diagnose disorders more for the extreme, predictable traits, especially the ones medicines can treat in that identified subclass but not in others. If you can treat it, and show a change towards health, and it can be showed it wasn't the placebo effect, especially with fMRI scans backing it, then you likely have evidence for a real disorder.
You sort of wiff-waffle'd between the original premise; "There are no degrees of insanity", and "We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person". This is exactly why that "Blind Thought Experiment" of mine started to prove tricky to myself. If we're all impaired, in some way, how can we know if there's an impairment limit/degree...if it's not shaded? You spoke of a local resident (of which I'm no where near similar to as far as I know), but how can you know so? There's a lot of assumptions behind some of those judgments.

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