My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Tell us a little about yourself.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: Really? You want a fucking coroners report? He was in an accident as I said. Stop being a fucking prat.
Sometimes you can be really thick.
And most of the time you're a cranky prat.
DO you need me to spell it out for you?
Okay so I did not respond to your joke. If it helps - I apologise.
Didn't help? Never mind.
Walker
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Re: what it is

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Walker wrote:Absolute Truth:
Without exception, everyone does what they must.

The rest of the discussion is all about why everyone does what they must. A case has to be made for why this must be known. I contend that knowing the why of this is just monkey-mind playing with itself, and can never be truth for this reason:

- Truth can only be found in the present moment and knowing why you do something beforehand is bending reality to the past. And what is the past but memory heavily influenced by memory when first formed.

- Knowing why you did something after the fact is rationalization prone to human ignorance. Once you’re rid of ignorance, well and good. Until then, the why is likely self-serving, and therefore not objective reality.
Makes no sense, I'm afraid, Walker.

In Determinism, "truth" just means "the way things happen to be." To believe in it or disbelieve in it is neither good nor bad...it's just another "way things happen to be."

"Ignorance" and "rationalization" are likewise just phenomena of the material universe, not good or bad in any way. And "self-serving" isn't wrong either. There's no way to "get rid" of such things, because whether or not you'll have them, or continue to, is purely a chance happening caused by material forces: if they go, they go, but if they don't, there's nothing to be done about it.

I think you're mistakenly trying to have it both ways. But that's not a directed personal criticism: I've never met a Determinist who did not belie his own Determinism in the first sentence he uttered. We may 'say' we don't believe in human freedom, choice, identity and so on, but with our first word we confess that we do.
Well howdy. Really enjoy your writings and insight. Very clear thinking. Funny thing, I almost died this past week and I'm still pondering what forces took over to spare me for awhile longer.

Surely with your wisdom you must realize that there are no mistakes.

I've never looked up the definition of the word determinism. I just jumped in here to say the way of things.

Just at this moment of the world I observe the array of possibilities which include counting angels on the head of a pin or, traveling to the beach resort where I don a silk Hawaiian shirt to nurse the always-fresh Margarettas, where I shall nurture the family which creates glowing memories to which I will likely turn in my dotage, and where I disconnect from the web to bask in the beauty of the scenery which includes the living art all around me; thus in this observation I realize that once again there really is no choice. Ever. The path is clear and there is no doubt which I suspect is why I write now, call it what you must.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Re:

Post by Immanuel Can »

Walker wrote: Well howdy.
How do, Ranger Walker.
Funny thing, I almost died this past week and I'm still pondering what forces took over to spare me for awhile longer.
Wow.

Well, I guess on a Determinist account, you were bound not to die. But it sounds to me like you wonder if there wasn't more to it.
Just at this moment of the world I observe the array of possibilities which include counting angels on the head of a pin or, traveling to the beach resort where I don a silk Hawaiian shirt to nurse the always-fresh Margarettas, where I shall nurture the family which creates glowing memories to which I will likely turn in my dotage, and where I disconnect from the web to bask in the beauty of the scenery which includes the living art all around me; thus in this observation I realize that once again there really is no choice. Ever. The path is clear and there is no doubt which I suspect is why I write now, call it what you must.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could be guaranteed to get what we visualize. But will we only get it if we take action (free will), or has it been programmed into the natural order of things since the Big Bang or before (Determinism). Either way, we never quite know. And that's the human dilemma -- if it is to be, is it up to me? Or will Fate do it all?

It reminds me of Macbeth, in his contemplating killing the king of Scotland to pinch his crown:

"If chance will have me king, why, chance may crown me
Without my stir."


But the problem is that he doesn't know if chance, all by itself, will do that. It might; but what if part of "chance" is that he must act? So he goes ahead and kills the king himself, thus precipitating his own downfall. But had he not, what would have happened? Again, he will never know. And Shakespeare reminds us that we never know the "what if" either.
Walker
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Re: what it is

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Walker wrote: Well howdy.
How do, Ranger Walker.
Funny thing, I almost died this past week and I'm still pondering what forces took over to spare me for awhile longer.
Wow.

Well, I guess on a Determinist account, you were bound not to die. But it sounds to me like you wonder if there wasn't more to it.
Just at this moment of the world I observe the array of possibilities which include counting angels on the head of a pin or, traveling to the beach resort where I don a silk Hawaiian shirt to nurse the always-fresh Margarettas, where I shall nurture the family which creates glowing memories to which I will likely turn in my dotage, and where I disconnect from the web to bask in the beauty of the scenery which includes the living art all around me; thus in this observation I realize that once again there really is no choice. Ever. The path is clear and there is no doubt which I suspect is why I write now, call it what you must.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could be guaranteed to get what we visualize. But will we only get it if we take action (free will), or has it been programmed into the natural order of things since the Big Bang or before (Determinism). Either way, we never quite know. And that's the human dilemma -- if it is to be, is it up to me? Or will Fate do it all?

It reminds me of Macbeth, in his contemplating killing the king of Scotland to pinch his crown:

"If chance will have me king, why, chance may crown me
Without my stir."


But the problem is that he doesn't know if chance, all by itself, will do that. It might; but what if part of "chance" is that he must act? So he goes ahead and kills the king himself, thus precipitating his own downfall. But had he not, what would have happened? Again, he will never know. And Shakespeare reminds us that we never know the "what if" either.
"Wouldn't it be nice if we could be guaranteed to get what we visualize."

It is guaranteed once you know, and you're very careful about what you intend because it's not really under ego control when motion is activated. Forces are summoned, good or evil. I'll say it plain, my friend. That which is I knows the mountaintop and always has, though that which is not I remembers the sights and the sounds of the discovery and all that goes with that. It happened long ago, with another mind ...

I always felt a great sympathy for King Lear.
Dalek Prime
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Sometimes you can be really thick.
And most of the time you're a cranky prat.
DO you need me to spell it out for you?
Okay so I did not respond to your joke. If it helps - I apologise.
Didn't help? Never mind.
That was nice of you Hobbes. Accepted with gratitude.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: And most of the time you're a cranky prat.
DO you need me to spell it out for you?
Okay so I did not respond to your joke. If it helps - I apologise.
Didn't help? Never mind.
That was nice of you Hobbes. Accepted with gratitude.
I never mean an apology, you arrogant pr1ck.
You were the one at fault.
Dalek Prime
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: DO you need me to spell it out for you?
Okay so I did not respond to your joke. If it helps - I apologise.
Didn't help? Never mind.
That was nice of you Hobbes. Accepted with gratitude.
I never mean an apology, you arrogant pr1ck.
You were the one at fault.
I got one in writing anyways, ya cranky arse. :)
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: That was nice of you Hobbes. Accepted with gratitude.
I never mean an apology, you arrogant pr1ck.
You were the one at fault.
I got one in writing anyways, ya cranky arse. :)
Fuck that.
http://www.businessinsider.de/intellige ... 016-8?IR=T
Dalek Prime
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
I never mean an apology, you arrogant pr1ck.
You were the one at fault.
I got one in writing anyways, ya cranky arse. :)
Fuck that.
http://www.businessinsider.de/intellige ... 016-8?IR=T
Hey, fuck what you want. :roll:
Dave Mangnall
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dave Mangnall »

Hey, Dalek & Hobbes Choice, I’m sorry that my innocent little post has led to so much acrimonious abuse. May I ask you this? Is your venom in any way sustained by the idea that the other could be other than he is if he so chose? Because, of course, he couldn’t, at least not within the Determinism model. Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation. Now, please, don’t both of you turn on me! Although, because of Determinism, I wouldn’t blame you if you did.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I got one in writing anyways, ya cranky arse. :)
Fuck that.
http://www.businessinsider.de/intellige ... 016-8?IR=T
Hey, fuck what you want. :roll:
Yeah, I was up late last night as usual.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dave Mangnall wrote:Hey, Dalek & Hobbes Choice, I’m sorry that my innocent little post has led to so much acrimonious abuse. May I ask you this? Is your venom in any way sustained by the idea that the other could be other than he is if he so chose? Because, of course, he couldn’t, at least not within the Determinism model. Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation. Now, please, don’t both of you turn on me! Although, because of Determinism, I wouldn’t blame you if you did.
I can't help myself. I'm determined to be "cranky" and allow a childish argument to spill over from another thread.
Dalek Prime
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dave Mangnall wrote:Hey, Dalek & Hobbes Choice, I’m sorry that my innocent little post has led to so much acrimonious abuse. May I ask you this? Is your venom in any way sustained by the idea that the other could be other than he is if he so chose? Because, of course, he couldn’t, at least not within the Determinism model. Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation. Now, please, don’t both of you turn on me! Although, because of Determinism, I wouldn’t blame you if you did.
I can't help myself. I'm determined to be "cranky" and allow a childish argument to spill over from another thread.
Yeah, the first thread he was ever on, and he's still on about it. (He was the only one on it, too.)
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dalek Prime
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Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Dave Mangnall wrote:Hey, Dalek & Hobbes Choice, I’m sorry that my innocent little post has led to so much acrimonious abuse. May I ask you this? Is your venom in any way sustained by the idea that the other could be other than he is if he so chose? Because, of course, he couldn’t, at least not within the Determinism model. Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation. Now, please, don’t both of you turn on me! Although, because of Determinism, I wouldn’t blame you if you did.
You didn't do anything Dave. Hobbes 'cranks' on everything.
Dalek Prime
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Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: My name is Dave. I'm a Determinist.

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hey, fuck what you want. :roll:
Yeah, I was up late last night as usual.
Me too. Should I call your wife a cab?
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