New Guy

[BigWhit]

Hello!

New to this forum and the magazine itself but no stranger to philosophy. I've gotten my toes wet with just about every kind of philosophy but my main interest is political philosophy. My favorite political philosophers at the moment are Aristotle, Machiavelli, and John Stewart Mill although that list will likely grow as I continue to read.

I do hope to be a common presence (and hopefully a pleasant one) in the future.

I live in Washington State in the USA and served in the U.S. Navy for 8 years.

[Dalek Prime]

Welcome. Never promise to be pleasant here. But one can always hope.

Think Hobbes is a Mills fan, but don't quote me.

[duszek]

Welcome to the forum.

So you are a "marine" ?
They have a reputation of being tough and merciless, but you sound nice.

Would you have a recommendation for wimpy people how to get tougher ?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Hello!

New to this forum and the magazine itself but no stranger to philosophy. I've gotten my toes wet with just about every kind of philosophy but my main interest is political philosophy. My favorite political philosophers at the moment are Aristotle, Machiavelli, and John Stewart Mill although that list will likely grow as I continue to read.

I do hope to be a common presence (and hopefully a pleasant one) in the future.

I live in Washington State in the USA and served in the U.S. Navy for 8 years.

Hang on in there. There are lots of nuts here - you'll figure out who I mean soon enough, but we could use some new blood so - welcome.

Why did you join the Navy?

[BigWhit]

I'm actually a "Sailor" duszek but we are still tough and merciless...on booze and foreign ports...We're the guys who deliver the Marines to the doorstep of the bad guys wherever they are.

I joined the Navy largely because of family tradition, I had nothing better to do, and I wanted to travel (which I did). Had a lot of fun but I'm enjoying the freedoms I have in the USA while they last.

And I've gotten to see some of the loonies on the forums already. Socialists and the religious will never cease to amaze me.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I'm actually a "Sailor" duszek but we are still tough and merciless...on booze and foreign ports...We're the guys who deliver the Marines to the doorstep of the bad guys wherever they are.

I joined the Navy largely because of family tradition, I had nothing better to do, and I wanted to travel (which I did). Had a lot of fun but I'm enjoying the freedoms I have in the USA while they last.

And I've gotten to see some of the loonies on the forums already. Socialists and the religious will never cease to amaze me.

Yes socialism is amazing and has delivered most of your so-called "freedoms" in the face of right wing resistance.

[Walker]

What Fuels Socialism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2JR3FmvVAw

[BigWhit]

Yes socialism is amazing and has delivered most of your so-called "freedoms" in the face of right wing resistance.

Liberalism and socialism have not always been bedfellows. The liberalism which led to the enlightenment and fought against what we would today consider right wing religious conservatism is as different from today's as the GOP is from the Republican Party of Lincoln's time. There was a fight for freedom, but it was a fight for a free market and the ability to use it to pull one's self from the pits of poverty and blur the contrast between the bourgeoisie and the peasants. Even those considered in poverty in America are richer than those doing well in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean we're done and don't need to advance further, but advancing we are.

What Fuels Socialism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2JR3FmvVAw

The world needs optimists and idealists and I empathize with their battle cry but I recognize the strategy of socialism and communism as being exactly counter to those goals. The three biggest murderes of the 20th century were two communists (Mao, Stalin) and a socialist (Hitler). Now I don't think Bernie Sanders is Hitler but he doesn't fart rainbows and there's no such thing as "free."

[Hobbes' Choice]

The three biggest murderes of the 20th century were two communists (Mao, Stalin) and a socialist (Hitler). Now I don't think Bernie Sanders is Hitler but he doesn't fart rainbows and there's no such thing as "free."

Allow me to put you straight.

Your penultimate statement is a crock of shit.

Let me draw you an analogy. I am the best writer in the world! Now obviously you scoff. Because I call myself the best writer in the world is not eh same as me actually being the best writer in the world or even coming close to being the best writer in the world.
In exactly the same way Mao and Stalin using the word "communist" and Hitler attaching the word "socialist" to "national socialist" is not the same as them actually being 'communists" and "socialists" now is it?

There is such a thing as free. It's a common enough used word that have a valid context in many circumstances. Bernie is not promising anything that is impossible, but wishes to redress the balance so that the people that ACTUALLY DO THE WORK get better rewarded for it and the people that sit on their arses AND REAP ALL THE REWARDS for doing fuck all take more responsibility to pay their taxes to service the country and infrastructure they so rely on to make their money.

[Walker]

The world needs optimists and idealists and I empathize with their battle cry but I recognize the strategy of socialism and communism as being exactly counter to those goals. The three biggest murderes of the 20th century were two communists (Mao, Stalin) and a socialist (Hitler). Now I don't think Bernie Sanders is Hitler but he doesn't fart rainbows and there's no such thing as "free."

The goodness of the dream is the fuel, the manifestation requires goodness of all.

Has the ideal ever been realized?

And, are the consequences of falling short more dire than other ways of organizing society?

The answers to these two questions tell the tale.

[BigWhit]

The three biggest murderes of the 20th century were two communists (Mao, Stalin) and a socialist (Hitler). Now I don't think Bernie Sanders is Hitler but he doesn't fart rainbows and there's no such thing as "free."

Allow me to put you straight.

Your last penultimate is a crock of shit.

Let me draw you an analogy. I am the best writer in the world! Now obviously you scoff. Because I call myself the best writer in the world is not eh same as me actually being the best writer in the world or even coming close to being the best writer in the world.
In exactly the same way Mao and Stalin using the word "communist" and Hitler attaching the word "socialist" to "national socialist" is not the same as them actually being 'communists" and "socialists" now is it?

There is such a thing as free. It's a common enough used word that have a valid context in many circumstances. Bernie is not promising anything that is impossible, but wishes to redress the balance so that the people that ACTUALLY DO THE WORK get better rewarded for it and the people that sit on their arses AND REAP ALL THE REWARDS for doing fuck all take more responsibility to pay their taxes to service the country and infrastructure they so rely on to make their money.

Of course calling oneself something does not make you that thing. However, they are the natural consequences of Communism put to practice in the real world. Putting the planning of a society in the hands of the state gives immeasurable power to those running the state and naturally attracts those who wish to have power. Those people are generally the most likely to abuse that power.

There is nothing free. The concept is relative. There are things at no cost of currency but even picking up the dirt you stand on costs time. Obviously the cost is quite low, but still there. Making college "free" to students would cost someone a lot of money, and if the people using the service are not paying for it then it must be those who are not. The increase in college tuition of recent is due to inflation and over enrollment encouraged by a government pushing student loans. Now we have people paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to college and get a degree only to be employed in a much lower skill position that often isn't even in their field of study. A lot of jobs that used to only require high school now demand a degree of some sort simply because the amount of applicants with a degree seeking the position puts anyone without it out of being considered.

Not everyone has to go to college. I did time in the service and got a very well paying job in a trade related to the one I did when I was in and it didn't cost me a dime.

The United States has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and by a sizable margin. Raising the cost of doing business in this country forces them to find ways of compensating. In some cases, this means relocating and outsourcing. Besides that, the rich pay huge sums of money in taxes to begin with. Someone making 5 million a year pays 1.75m in taxes at 35%. That's more than 100x what I pay. And that's just income taxes. It doesn't take much to build roads and most of those are built by local governments who only see a fraction of what the federal government does.

I ask, how would a true communist or socialist state look?

[BigWhit]

The goodness of the dream is the fuel, the manifestation requires goodness of all.

Has the ideal ever been realized?

And, are the consequences of falling short more dire than other ways of organizing society?

The answers to these two questions tell the tale.

The goodness of all is something I can get behind, unfortunately it is a long way off from being achieved.

Give people freedom and let them organize themselves. It's the easiest way to get to where you want to go.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The three biggest murderes of the 20th century were two communists (Mao, Stalin) and a socialist (Hitler). Now I don't think Bernie Sanders is Hitler but he doesn't fart rainbows and there's no such thing as "free."

Allow me to put you straight.

Your last penultimate is a crock of shit.

Let me draw you an analogy. I am the best writer in the world! Now obviously you scoff. Because I call myself the best writer in the world is not eh same as me actually being the best writer in the world or even coming close to being the best writer in the world.
In exactly the same way Mao and Stalin using the word "communist" and Hitler attaching the word "socialist" to "national socialist" is not the same as them actually being 'communists" and "socialists" now is it?

There is such a thing as free. It's a common enough used word that have a valid context in many circumstances. Bernie is not promising anything that is impossible, but wishes to redress the balance so that the people that ACTUALLY DO THE WORK get better rewarded for it and the people that sit on their arses AND REAP ALL THE REWARDS for doing fuck all take more responsibility to pay their taxes to service the country and infrastructure they so rely on to make their money.

Of course calling oneself something does not make you that thing. However, they are the natural consequences of Communism put to practice in the real world. Putting the planning of a society in the hands of the state gives immeasurable power to those running the state and naturally attracts those who wish to have power. Those people are generally the most likely to abuse that power.

Your comments are based on ignorance and are hopelessly naive.

There is nothing free. The concept is relative.
{/quote] the concept is not even relevant

There are things at no cost of currency but even picking up the dirt you stand on costs time. Obviously the cost is quite low, but still there. Making college "free" to students would cost someone a lot of money, and if the people using the service are not paying for it then it must be those who are not. The increase in college tuition of recent is due to inflation and over enrollment encouraged by a government pushing student loans. Now we have people paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to college and get a degree only to be employed in a much lower skill position that often isn't even in their field of study. A lot of jobs that used to only require high school now demand a degree of some sort simply because the amount of applicants with a degree seeking the position puts anyone without it out of being considered.

Not everyone has to go to college. I did time in the service and got a very well paying job in a trade related to the one I did when I was in and it didn't cost me a dime.

The United States has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and by a sizable margin. Raising the cost of doing business in this country forces them to find ways of compensating. In some cases, this means relocating and outsourcing. Besides that, the rich pay huge sums of money in taxes to begin with. Someone making 5 million a year pays 1.75m in taxes at 35%. That's more than 100x what I pay. And that's just income taxes. It doesn't take much to build roads and most of those are built by local governments who only see a fraction of what the federal government does.

I ask, how would a true communist or socialist state look?

[BigWhit]

Oh, please explain.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Oh, please explain.

Your thinking is too black and white to bother with you.