Was math invented or discovered?

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

A_Seagull wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:[You may not consider it useful, as you say, to consider all the other formal languages together, but they undeniably are, including mathematics. I understand what you are saying about interest, which pure mathematics, being the most formal and general language system, can bring. But it's still of the same category, and so I can't accept the reason for treating them as separate.
Ok then. I have shown how mathematics is dissimilar to a language. You claimed it's not useful to consider formal languages together, without refuting my argument. That's all you did.

Can you show how mathematics is similar to a language? (Just to say: "They undeniably are" hardly constitutes a rational philosophical argument.)
Do you deny maths are formal languages?

It's symbolic, with definite syntax and semantics, communicating concepts between people in a precise mannner. As the universal formal language, it defines the rules of all others. Google is your friend. Go look it up.
surreptitious57
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Dalek Prime wrote:
As the universal formal language it defines the rules of all others
But every other language is inferior in comparison to it because of ambiguities within them
An axiomatically deductive system of logic like mathematics must be as precise as possible
Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

surreptitious57 wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
As the universal formal language it defines the rules of all others
But every other language is inferior in comparison to it because of ambiguities within them
An axiomatically deductive system of logic like mathematics must be as precise as possible
I don't disagree with you, but I'm not certain that they are inferior because of ambiguities. There are fewer ambiguities in a limited system such as a programming language, because they were created to root them out in order to accomplish a goal. I do accept they are inferior in the sense their application is of a smaller, finite nature eg. limits of computability.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by A_Seagull »

Dalek Prime wrote:[
It's symbolic, with definite syntax and semantics, communicating concepts between people in a precise mannner. As the universal formal language, it defines the rules of all others. Google is your friend. Go look it up.
Philosophy is about looking beneath the surface, perhaps you should try it one time.
Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

A_Seagull wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:[
It's symbolic, with definite syntax and semantics, communicating concepts between people in a precise mannner. As the universal formal language, it defines the rules of all others. Google is your friend. Go look it up.
Philosophy is about looking beneath the surface, perhaps you should try it one time.
I've gone further beneath the surface than you will ever go, you prissy snot. Shut it.

If you read a smattering of my serious posts, you'd find I hold no illusions regarding existence, and accept nothing at face value, unless it's warranted, or harmless to do so.
julia7694
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by julia7694 »

Pure math, in and of itself, is something we have and continue to learn. Numbers, quantities, statistics.... They simply exist every bit as much as a rock exists, as you exist. People say math is a language but it isn't. The symbols we use to describe it, the words, those are language.

Math was discovered. When we learned, first that 1 orange in one hand and 1 orange in another hand meant we had 2 oranges (and two hands!!!) we discovered math. When we were able to take the extra step and label things (oranges, hands, whatever...) as 1 or 2 or 5,682 we invented a language for math.

Everything in math is true and exists even if humans never did. Math is non-physical. It is nothing we can see, feel, taste, touch, or hear.

Math is pure, simple logic. It gets easier when you can realize it exists as much as a rock. It gets fun when you realize that it can explain that rock. But that gets you into physics ;-)
Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

julia7694 wrote:Pure math, in and of itself, is something we have and continue to learn. Numbers, quantities, statistics.... They simply exist every bit as much as a rock exists, as you exist. People say math is a language but it isn't. The symbols we use to describe it, the words, those are language.

Math was discovered. When we learned, first that 1 orange in one hand and 1 orange in another hand meant we had 2 oranges (and two hands!!!) we discovered math. When we were able to take the extra step and label things (oranges, hands, whatever...) as 1 or 2 or 5,682 we invented a language for math.

Everything in math is true and exists even if humans never did. Math is non-physical. It is nothing we can see, feel, taste, touch, or hear.

Math is pure, simple logic. It gets easier when you can realize it exists as much as a rock. It gets fun when you realize that it can explain that rock. But that gets you into physics ;-)
Sounds fairly reasonable, but as everything has an inherent mathematical basis aside from the language, doesn't that mean nothing has actually been invented, only discovered and applied, from the language on up? It's all there already, waiting to be discovered, and used, like wild grapes on a vine.

As absurd as that may sound, that's what your thinking ultimately leads to.

So, to answer the old chicken/egg problem, which this thread also is, you'd have to say that neither came first; only the mathematics behind life was, being ever present before physicality itself, which maths describe.

Note I'm not saying you're wrong, because what you said makes sense otherwise. But then we do have to accept the inherent absurdity along with it, as part and parcel.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. You strike me as having a sharp mind.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Math is discovered. The symbols we arbitrarily use to represent numbers or the particular style of logic we use in relating them are perhaps 'invented'. But this is trivial. With or without my existence, some 'set' of things we semantically refer to as a group of 'two', say, exist. A molecule doesn't CARE that we call it a "molecule" but is our reference to the semantic meaning of "at least two or more atoms covalently bonded as a unit". To think we "invented" numbers or math is thus rather solipsistic or arrogant or ? . ...or our own semantic confusion of the meaning of "invention" vs "discover".
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Scott Mayers wrote:Math is discovered. The symbols we arbitrarily use to represent numbers or the particular style of logic we use in relating them are perhaps 'invented'. But this is trivial. With or without my existence, some 'set' of things we semantically refer to as a group of 'two', say, exist. A molecule doesn't CARE that we call it a "molecule" but is our reference to the semantic meaning of "at least two or more atoms covalently bonded as a unit". To think we "invented" numbers or math is thus rather solipsistic or arrogant or ? . ...or our own semantic confusion of the meaning of "invention" vs "discover".
Scott, the symbols were invented, not perhaps.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:Math is discovered. The symbols we arbitrarily use to represent numbers or the particular style of logic we use in relating them are perhaps 'invented'. But this is trivial. With or without my existence, some 'set' of things we semantically refer to as a group of 'two', say, exist. A molecule doesn't CARE that we call it a "molecule" but is our reference to the semantic meaning of "at least two or more atoms covalently bonded as a unit". To think we "invented" numbers or math is thus rather solipsistic or arrogant or ? . ...or our own semantic confusion of the meaning of "invention" vs "discover".
Scott, the symbols were invented, not perhaps.
Not in disagreement with the particular symbols. But if you're interested, there is a good book by Georges Ifrah, who went into depth on this: "From One to Zero: A Universal History of Numbers" or his more recent updated extended version, "From Prehistory to the Invention of the Computer: A Universal History of Numbers".

From his original research, he determined that many of the symbols even have certain universal forms. Like the symbols for one and zero are often independently symbolized as '1' and '0' (when discovered) AND, things like the Roman numerals. Those arise from marking sticks for counts with something sharp. Thus '1' or rather, a segment, '|', of any sort, is a 'one'. A five, is a side notch to instead of a front notch on a stick that makes the universally used 'v' shape, and the ten, is two 'v's, a Notch on top and one on the bottom, to make the 'X'.

But these are still irrelevant. Anything can stand for a symbol that denotes the meaning of a quantity. The quantity still exists independent of our personal choice of symbols, whether written, vocalized, or any other means. So I interpret math and logic, in general, 'discovered'. What is harder to determine is how nature itself 'perceives' its own logic (the laws that determine its physics) in a universal way.
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Does it perceive it's own symbols? I realize you put it in quotes, so I know you don't mean that as consciousness, but I don't believe the universe has such, as we do. It's an interesting thought, though, to be sure. But as we can't even perceive another's consciousness, we can only guess at it, and go in circles.

I will check out that book though. Thank you. Nice to see you back, btw.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Dalek Prime wrote:Does it perceive it's own symbols? I realize you put it in quotes, so I know you don't mean that as consciousness, but I don't believe the universe has such, as we do. It's an interesting thought, though, to be sure. But as we can't even perceive another's consciousness, we can only guess at it, and go in circles.

I will check out that book though. Thank you. Nice to see you back, btw.
But are we a function of this Universe (Totality) or is it a function of us?!
Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Scott Mayers wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Does it perceive it's own symbols? I realize you put it in quotes, so I know you don't mean that as consciousness, but I don't believe the universe has such, as we do. It's an interesting thought, though, to be sure. But as we can't even perceive another's consciousness, we can only guess at it, and go in circles.

I will check out that book though. Thank you. Nice to see you back, btw.
But are we a function of this Universe (Totality) or is it a function of us?!
Good question. I wouldn't want to answer that off the top of my head. Let me think on it. It's certainly a Lewis Carroll/Alice conundrum, ala "am I dreaming him, or is he dreaming me".
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Well, if WE are the 'source' (inventor) of Numbers/Math
AND
TOTALITY is the 'source' of who WE are,

then, transitively,
TOTALITY is the 'source' of Numbers/Math.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZHNw1MtzI
Dalek Prime
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Re: Was math invented or discovered?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Scott Mayers wrote:Well, if WE are the 'source' (inventor) of Numbers/Math
AND
TOTALITY is the 'source' of who WE are,

then, transitively,
TOTALITY is the 'source' of Numbers/Math.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZHNw1MtzI
Yes, if...

I am not totality. I frankly don't care how I got here. All I know is my consciousness, which will end, so it doesn't matter to me, anyways. It doesn't change the absurdity of it all I brought up, and the conversation is beginning to feel like we were discussing God, not maths.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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