Plato's Theory of Forms...

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Scott Mayers
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by Scott Mayers »

Obvious Leo wrote:I have no objection to your use of the computer as a template for reality because I do the same thing but you're speaking of a computer executing a programme and I'm referring to a computer which programmes its own input, which you should understand is the Universal Turing Machine. An eternal reality maker needs no programme because cause and effect is all that is needed as an evolutionary algorithm for a universe sufficient to its own existence. Your Platonic mathematical forms cannot specify for such a universe because they are of supernatural origin. Your philosophy is intrinsically creationist.
No it isn't. Why would you place such a false assumption on me as if I have to even bother with some burden to defending what I don't believe? I'm strongly atheist. And my assumption on reality is to base it on nothing at all. Thus, I'm arguing for a Nihilistic stance. You begin assuming nothing, knowing that you are a something which assures this is contradictory. Thus, by assuming it, you are assured that both a something AND a nothingness follow logically. By contrast, you can also argue by beginning with "something" and demonstrate that "nothing(s)" exist. But this is already understood. Only it is harder for many to comprehend that a nothingness is even more of a reduced concept than to assume something.

On the other hand, you take the stance that things like space itself are nothing but as made up human referents. This to me sounds opposingly weird and I gave you the examples of how this to most religions is their justification for their derived belief in "Spirit" as they perceived the mystical nature of air. They too would have argued the same way about it as you do. That if it were something, should we not be able to see it as we do other things that "MATTER"? (thus the origin of the concept in science)

You only extend this rationale to space simply because you don't understand it "mattering" in a similar way. But I challenge you to try ignoring its existence by taking one of Brandson's space tours and stepping outside for a walk without a suit. If what you feel then isn't real to you, you win. Just please send some photos back so that I can see you gloat as you prove me wrong.

If space were unreal, than no distance even exists between matter unless you beg that some 'supernatural entity' is playing some trick on you to give you that illusion. The 'gap' in time you expect doesn't exist would have to be another version of Platonic formula you also disagree with. You send a beam of light out to the sky, when it hits the atmosphere, it hits some magical 'timer' that you cannot see that delays it long enough to give you the illusion of traveling through some non-existing thing.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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Scott. If you assume that the universe had a beginning then you assume that it had an external causal agent and that is a creationist theory. It makes no difference whether you prefer god or the multiverse or the rainbow serpent because your universe is always going to be insufficient to its own existence and always beyond the reach of either scientific or philosophical enquiry. All you're doing is shoving your explanation beneath the veil of the unknowable.
Scott Mayers wrote: If space were unreal, than no distance even exists between matter
In the Standard Model of Particle Physics matter can ONLY be modelled in this way as point particles with no spatial extension.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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Why don't you start by arguing the case for a universe with a beginning? Why should such a claim be preferred to an eternal universe?
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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Scott Mayers wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
raw_thought wrote:????
It is very easy to understand.
The third man argument creates an infinite regress.
Good grief, that has got to be one of the rudest and least informed posts I have ever read.
To be honest I did not feel like typing paragraphs explaining philosophy 101! But i wanted to be polite.
It's not rude. Why would you think that an infinite regress is incommensurable with reality? The thought that an infinite regress somehow undermines another theory is ultimately just an opinion.
The form of a circle requires an understanding of Pi. Because Pi is never resolved does that mean a circle is meaningless?
Yes, I agree with this. This is my contention with the same problem argued with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, another more formal version of the "Third Man" argument. That a set can be described as a set that contains all sets may be unable to define (as in make finite or closed), but as Calculus operates in the same way using limits, the same can also be presumed about things that are infinite. In this way, infinite concepts can be closed.
Personally I don't agree. I was playing Devil's advocate. I regard maths as a human conceit, and only a poor model of the universe, inevitably incommensurable with the detail of the Universe.
Their are not straight lines in nature; no integers; no perfect circles. The fact that Pi is unending is a problem with the model not of reality.

And for what it is worth the Theory of Forms is possibly the most dangerous and stupid philosophical theory ever devised as it insidiously encourages the fallacy that words are more meaningful than the things they can only approximately signify. It is wholly Theistic in design and infantilises those who accept it.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: The form of a circle requires an understanding of Pi. Because Pi is never resolved does that mean a circle is meaningless?
Surely the concept of pi is contained within the definition of the circle. The circle is a mathematical object which can be defined as a line which is equidistant from a point in a 2D space. Without such a definition pi has no meaning.
Such a thing does not exist except in the mind of the mathematician. I was playing devil's advocate. The fact that Pi is irresolvable is the best evidence we have that maths is just an invention and it is unworthy of us to base our ontologies on it rather than on what it tries inaccurately to model.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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Scott Mayers wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:Scott. Can I take it that you are in the "mathematics was discovered" camp rather than with the "mathematics was invented" Kantians like me?
Yes. Our creative portion regards the particular methods and symbolism we use but the underlying logic is and can be inferred necessarily through nature. That is, even logic/math is as much 'empirically' observed and it is even more powerfully certain than any other kind of observation we use within science.

While some appear to use it to validate certain things in our contingent reality to which such conclusions may not follow as being 'sound', this is only due to they way we can use hypothetical premises in a logical form, even where only imaginary. It doesn't dismiss how we can determine certain logical generalized truths about things like number, to be used as initial premises.

Some, for instance, attempt to use, "2 + 2 = 4", as a sample to try to emphasize that we simply define numbers based on a begged definition. But this is confusing only the particular symbols we use over the actual meaning behind it (the 'mistaking maps of the territory' thing that you even recognize is often made.) The semantic concept doesn't need a 'mind' to perceive it to be real. A more clearer way to describe the difference is by appropriately redefining the sample above for a definition of (2 + 2) or '4', as "2x + 2x = 4x", instead. Algebra, is thus the logic of the 'form' of numbers we infer where 'x' can stand for anything.

2(apples) + 2(apples) = 4(apples)
2(events) + 2(events) = 4(events)

∴ 2x + 2x = 4x
The big problem with this is the simple fact that 1 apple is never equal to another apple.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by Scott Mayers »

I can't help you guys here. With your 'reasonings', rather than assert that you guys exist, I have the same justice to think you are merely a fantasy in my head as these are just weird illusionary symbols without meaning. I don't actually think this but you guys DO which makes you extraordinarily more 'certain' in your heads that this is the case. And yet you think this is religious? Than abracadabra, you're hallucinating me here. These words are coming to you from your own solipsistic heads!
Obvious Leo
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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Hobbes' Choice wrote:maths is just an invention and it is unworthy of us to base our ontologies on it rather than on what it tries inaccurately to model.
Although laying waste to Plato is rather akin to shooting fish in a barrel it's always gratifying to find an ally. As a wordsmith I reckon I know an oxymoron when I see one and I'm fairly certain that a "mathematics ontology" is such an animal.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by raw_thought »

Obvious Leo wrote:Scott. If you assume that the universe had a beginning then you assume that it had an external causal agent and that is a creationist theory. It makes no difference whether you prefer god or the multiverse or the rainbow serpent because your universe is always going to be insufficient to its own existence and always beyond the reach of either scientific or philosophical enquiry. All you're doing is shoving your explanation beneath the veil of the unknowable.
Scott Mayers wrote: If space were unreal, than no distance even exists between matter
In the Standard Model of Particle Physics matter can ONLY be modelled in this way as point particles with no spatial extension.
I already explained why an infinite past does not explain why the constants are so perfect for life. Suppose we explain why the earth is where it is because it sits on an elephant,and that elephant on an elephant.... That does not explain why they are elephants and not rocks.
As for outside or inside,you have simply put God inside the universe. Pantheism is still theism.
As for your idea that the universe changed (self regulated ) its constants (speed of light,size of electrons etc) to create life.... :lol:
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by raw_thought »

Obvious Leo wrote:Why don't you start by arguing the case for a universe with a beginning? Why should such a claim be preferred to an eternal universe?
As I said an eternal universe does not explain why the constants are perfectly suited for life. See above.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by raw_thought »

"the big problem with this is that one apple is never equal to another apple"
Hobbes
So words (that refer to abstractions) are meaningless? If that is true everything you wrote is meaningless because you used words.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

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I've lost all interest in this absurd topic.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by raw_thought »

raw_thought wrote:"the big problem with this is that one apple is never equal to another apple"
Hobbes
So words (that refer to abstractions) are meaningless? If that is true everything you wrote is meaningless because you used words.
What I mean is that the word "apple" does not refer to a particular apple. Apple A and apple B can be different and still both be apples. A mcintosh and a granny smith are both apples.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:maths is just an invention and it is unworthy of us to base our ontologies on it rather than on what it tries inaccurately to model.
Although laying waste to Plato is rather akin to shooting fish in a barrel it's always gratifying to find an ally. As a wordsmith I reckon I know an oxymoron when I see one and I'm fairly certain that a "mathematics ontology" is such an animal.
Well, close, but no cigar as they say. You can know about something's ontological difficulties without examining the problem by considering a thing's ontology. But I think we can rest assured that without humans to conceive maths, there would be no maths at all. ... and of course no ToFs.
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Re: Plato's Theory of Forms...

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:
raw_thought wrote:"the big problem with this is that one apple is never equal to another apple"
Hobbes
So words (that refer to abstractions) are meaningless? If that is true everything you wrote is meaningless because you used words.
What I mean is that the word "apple" does not refer to a particular apple. Apple A and apple B can be different and still both be apples. A mcintosh and a granny smith are both apples.
But apples is NOT equal to apple, which renders your above post to a situation where "=" is nothing more than a human interested approximation, and thus partial. It's not about reality, but simply one human version of it.
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