What is a true first cause?

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

yet the only 'irreducible complex' object that you IDers can find is a flagellum whereas every other object appears to be explicable via evolution,
Funny! :lol:

Sorry, but you're really, really out of touch with what's been happening. The bacterial flagellum was but the second case proposed of irreducible complexity. The first was the human eye. But since then, the cases have multiplied and grown in sophistication. At present, the best examples are multi-species symbiotic relationships that, because they involve the putative "evolution" of multiple species in perfect tandem, and have no plausible intermediate stages, seem impossible to describe in progressive evolutionary steps, and the DNA structure itself, with it's incredible specificity and vast information content. And Evolutionism has no reasonable explanation for any of them.

But hey, don't ask me. Take a look at avowed Atheists like Flew and Nagel abandoning ship...and it's happening very frequently these days in regard to the philosophy of mind...mind being perhaps the most complex and difficult entity to explain of them all.

But go check. I can wait. :D
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Immanuel Can wrote:
yet the only 'irreducible complex' object that you IDers can find is a flagellum whereas every other object appears to be explicable via evolution,
Funny! :lol:

Sorry, but you're really, really out of touch with what's been happening. The bacterial flagellum was but the second case proposed of irreducible complexity. The first was the human eye. But since then, the cases have multiplied and grown in sophistication. At present, the best examples are multi-species symbiotic relationships that, because they involve the putative "evolution" of multiple species in perfect tandem, and have no plausible intermediate stages, seem impossible to describe in progressive evolutionary steps, and the DNA structure itself, with it's incredible specificity and vast information content. And Evolutionism has no reasonable explanation for any of them.

But hey, don't ask me. Take a look at avowed Atheists like Flew and Nagel abandoning ship...and it's happening very frequently these days in regard to the philosophy of mind...mind being perhaps the most complex and difficult entity to explain of them all.

But go check. I can wait. :D
I've researched the matter. Seems like the oculus could have evolved.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

the ID'ers can only say there is no evidence, therefore God did it,
Hogwash, Doc. See above.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Seems like the oculus could have evolved.
One down, a hundred thousand to go. :D

But wait...it isn't even one down...

After all, to show that something "could have" happened, isn't to show that it "did": only that in extremis, some sort of alternate explanation could be mounted...but not that it's the right one, nor even that it's the most plausible or scientific one.

Even on the eye, let alone the flagellum, and let alone all the other examples, Evolution has its work cut out for it. And it's not doing it very well. Just wait until it gets to the DNA strand and the human mind...
Ginkgo
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Ginkgo »

By claiming it is the most "rational" explanation doesn't work when it comes to science.
Immanuel Can wrote: Au contraire, it's *all* that science ever looks for.

The best explanation for apples falling from trees is gravity, so until a better hypothesis appears, the product of more full evidence, we're best to believe in gravity. And when that hypothesis appears, it too may eventually be disproven by a third theory. But for now, gravity is the best answer we've got, and the one with which we, as rational people, should stick.

That's perfect scientific practice: to go with the most rational explanation with provisional conviction, and rationally remain open to additional data.
IC, this is the second time you have quote mined one of my posts. Please don't do this an then pretend to tell me about science.

Science needs physical evidence for design.
Immanuel Can wrote: And there is plenty of such evidence. Many things in the world have a complexity, interdependence and arrangement, and incorporate specified information in such a way that, as Dawkins notes, the inclination to recognize design is nearly irresistible, except by a colossal effort of will.
Well, I'm glad the other half of my quote turned up.

Anyway, is this more quote mining IC? Are you trying to tell us that Richard Dawkins admits the only way he can reject intelligent design is though an effort of will? When it comes to intelligent design Richard's modus operandi is to use science to reject such ideas.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Seems like the oculus could have evolved.
One down, a hundred thousand to go. :D

But wait...it isn't even one down...

After all, to show that something "could have" happened, isn't to show that it "did": only that in extremis, some sort of alternate explanation could be mounted...but not that it's the right one, nor even that it's the most plausible or scientific one.

Even on the eye, let alone the flagellum, and let alone all the other examples, Evolution has its work cut out for it. And it's not doing it very well. Just wait until it gets to the DNA strand and the human mind...
Old news, my man. They already got RNA to self-replicate in a lab. (autonomously) DNA is coming up.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

quote mined
"Quote mined"? I just took a bit of what you said and responded to it. Does that cause you some kind of offence? Is there another way to go? I think I can only respond to what you said... :?

Familiarize me with this "quote mining" concept.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

They already got RNA to self-replicate in a lab.
Trying to figure out how this helps your case or hurts mine....

So far, not succeeding.
Ginkgo
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
"Quote mined"? I just took a bit of what you said and responded to it.
The problem is that you have taken a piece of my quote and used it to remind me of the importance of the empirical side of science. If you used my complete quote you would see I didn't neglect the empirical aspect.

Immanuel Can wrote: Does that cause you some kind of offence?
It might offend Dawkins, but it doesn't offend me.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Is there another way to go? I think I can only respond to what you said... :?
Yes, don't quote mine.
Immanuel Can wrote: Familiarize me with this "quote mining" concept.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_o ... of_context.
Ginkgo
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Seems like the oculus could have evolved.
One down, a hundred thousand to go. :D

But wait...it isn't even one down...

After all, to show that something "could have" happened, isn't to show that it "did": only that in extremis, some sort of alternate explanation could be mounted...but not that it's the right one, nor even that it's the most plausible or scientific one.

Even on the eye, let alone the flagellum, and let alone all the other examples, Evolution has its work cut out for it. And it's not doing it very well. Just wait until it gets to the DNA strand and the human mind...

it makes no difference. "God of the gaps", or "intelligent designer of the gaps". It is no doubt the case that evolution is inadequate in many areas. I agree it cannot explain the eye at this stage. The most rational and logical explanation may well be design. So what? It is still a "Science cannot explain evolution so it must be the work of an intelligent designer" argument. It is a fallacy of false dilemma.

Going back to my original point on a previous post. What type of scientific experiment do ID theorists propose to construct in order to demonstrate the presence of an intelligent designer.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

it makes no difference. "God of the gaps", or "intelligent designer of the gaps".
But as I pointed out, I'm not making a "gap" argument at all. You're too fixed on the single idea that I must be, and so you're having trouble seeing that Theists don't need to -- and wouldn't be rational to -- insist that God must be the direct cause of natural phenomena.

A Lawgiver God is not the direct cause of what happens under the laws he establishes. He's only indirectly involved in the causal explanation of particular phenomena, as the Originator of the system in which these events take place; and He may or may not choose to be involved in their particular workings on particular occasions, and then by way of extraordinary circumstances. Beyond that, His role is as sustainer of the system-at-large, but not micromanager of every phenomenon.

Of course He *can* directly intervene if He wishes; but if He does, it's by way of the miraculous, not of routine physical laws. Normally you can expect the physical laws to operate predictably -- a fact that makes regular science itself possible. Normally, Red Seas don't divide. Normally, dead men don't rise. And when such things happen, it would be a miracle, not a natural happenstance.

You see, the old "God-of-the-Gaps" critique says that our conception of God must shrink as the gaps in our explanation of natural phenomena are closed scientifically. But God is not in the gaps. So when we close the gaps, we're not explaining any part of Him away.

Clearer?
It is no doubt the case that evolution is inadequate in many areas. I agree it cannot explain the eye at this stage. The most rational and logical explanation may well be design. So what?
So what? Wow. That's a big admission relative to your argument. Science aims at the best explanation. If the best explanation is, at the moment, design, then the corollary of that is that it's also the best scientific explanation. (Again, though, you've got to get your thinking out of the gaps to realize this.)
It is still a "Science cannot explain evolution so it must be the work of an intelligent designer" argument. It is a fallacy of false dilemma.
This is certainly not an argument I made. I have no idea where you got it.

Look, maybe the problem is this: it looks to me like you keep trying to the echoes of what you think you already know about Theism in what I am saying here. You've heard about things like the God-of-the-Gaps view, and you've heard that people who believe in God make it. But actually, those are Deists, not Theists. So you're hearing what I'm saying through that filter, as if I'm a Deists.

I'm not. I'm a Christian. And I'm not making the arguments you're attributing to me. You'll need a Deist to defend them, and I don't know one, so I can't help you with that. If you want a defence of God-of-the-Gaps. you'll need to look elsewhere.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Ginkgo wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
Seems like the oculus could have evolved.
One down, a hundred thousand to go. :D

But wait...it isn't even one down...

After all, to show that something "could have" happened, isn't to show that it "did": only that in extremis, some sort of alternate explanation could be mounted...but not that it's the right one, nor even that it's the most plausible or scientific one.

Even on the eye, let alone the flagellum, and let alone all the other examples, Evolution has its work cut out for it. And it's not doing it very well. Just wait until it gets to the DNA strand and the human mind...

it makes no difference. "God of the gaps", or "intelligent designer of the gaps". It is no doubt the case that evolution is inadequate in many areas. I agree it cannot explain the eye at this stage. The most rational and logical explanation may well be design. So what? It is still a "Science cannot explain evolution so it must be the work of an intelligent designer" argument. It is a fallacy of false dilemma.

Going back to my original point on a previous post. What type of scientific experiment do ID theorists propose to construct in order to demonstrate the presence of an intelligent designer.
read several different explanations. they were fine to me. didnt have no gaps.
Ginkgo
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote: But as I pointed out, I'm not making a "gap" argument at all. You're too fixed on the single idea that I must be, and so you're having trouble seeing that Theists don't need to -- and wouldn't be rational to -- insist that God must be the direct cause of natural phenomena.

A Lawgiver God is not the direct cause of what happens under the laws he establishes. He's only indirectly involved in the causal explanation of particular phenomena, as the Originator of the system in which these events take place; and He may or may not choose to be involved in their particular workings on particular occasions, and then by way of extraordinary circumstances. Beyond that, His role is as sustainer of the system-at-large, but not micromanager of every phenomenon.

Of course He *can* directly intervene if He wishes; but if He does, it's by way of the miraculous, not of routine physical laws. Normally you can expect the physical laws to operate predictably -- a fact that makes regular science itself possible. Normally, Red Seas don't divide. Normally, dead men don't rise. And when such things happen, it would be a miracle, not a natural happenstance.

You see, the old "God-of-the-Gaps" critique says that our conception of God must shrink as the gaps in our explanation of natural phenomena are closed scientifically. But God is not in the gaps. So when we close the gaps, we're not explaining any part of Him away.

Clearer?
Yes it is clearer, and I don't have a problem with it. It sounds like an interesting postulate. God as the originator (I assume first cause) is not directly involved in the casual process. It is only on rare occasions when miracles are performed that he is directly involved.

That's fair enough, but science doesn't acknowledge the existence of God.
Ginkgo wrote: It is no doubt the case that evolution is inadequate in many areas. I agree oit cannot explain the evolution of the eye at this stage. The most rational and logical explanation may well be design. So what?
Immanuel Can wrote: So what? Wow. That's a big admission relative to your argument. Science aims at the best explanation. If the best explanation is, at the moment, design, then the corollary of that is that it's also the best scientific explanation. (Again, though, you've got to get your thinking out of the gaps to realize this.)
Not really, you are assuming the best argument for design is a scientific argument. The best argument for design may well be the argument you have produced above, in terms of God being the indirect cause. That doesn't make it the best scientific argument, it could turn out to be the best non-scientific argument.
Ginkgo wrote: It is still a "Science cannot explain evolution so it must be the work of an intelligent designer" argument. It is a fallacy of false dilemma.
Immanuel Can wrote: This is certainly not an argument I made. I have no idea where you got it.
From you argument above.
Ginkgo wrote: Look, maybe the problem is this: it looks to me like you keep trying to the echoes of what you think you already know about Theism in what I am saying here. You've heard about things like the God-of-the-Gaps view, and you've heard that people who believe in God make it. But actually, those are Deists, not Theists. So you're hearing what I'm saying through that filter, as if I'm a Deists.

Your first argument in terms of God as the lawgiver sounds a lot like Deism to me.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by Immanuel Can »

science doesn't acknowledge the existence of God.
This is certainly historically incorrect, and there's no obvious reason why it would be rationally necessary today.

Forgive me, but your logic here looks totally like begging the question. Certainly there are a whole lot of scientists...including most of the fathers of the discipline...who did in fact believe in God. It's also clear, as even Dawkins admits, that science comes directly out of a worldview that expected natural laws, and the scientists who held that worldview knew to look for such laws; and they knew this because they believed in a Lawgiver God. That's not even controversial.

Maybe the only question you could raise is whether or not that view has to persist today. But you certainly couldn't argue that belief in God and science are fundamentally incompatible historically.

If there's any sense in which one could argue that science is not able to deal with the God concept, it might be that it has no methodology for subduing Him and putting him on a microscope slide, or pinching him in Vernier callipers, or finding a way to heat Him up in a beaker or graduated cylinder. But hey, what would you expect of the Supreme Being? That he'd be tame to the science of tiny little contingent beings like us? It's hard to see why you'd think that made sense.
Not really, you are assuming the best argument for design is a scientific argument.
Incorrect. I'm saying that the best explanation IS the best science. And if, as you say, the best explanation is God...

Your rejoinder reminds me of a poster I saw once. It was one of those "demotivator" posters, if you know what I mean...with the glossy picture and the caption? The picture was of a galaxy, and the subtitle read,

Atheism: following the evidence wherever it leads
except when it leads to You-Know-Who.


:D
Your first argument in terms of God as the lawgiver sounds a lot like Deism to me.
Then I'm happy to straighten that out.

Deism holds that God is a sort of "absentee landlord," who never intervenes in Creation, and may not even have any particular personal identity or moral precepts other than that we play out whatever hand he originally dealt to us when he created this place. It's most certainly not Christianity. In fact, it has no conceptual need of reference to Christ at all.
jackles
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Re: What is a true first cause?

Post by jackles »

What caused timespace as locality to exist. The answer and cause is nonlocation. Timespace is just a form of nonlocality. As seen in spooky action it nonlocality disregards timespace as a part of its self.
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