Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:17 pmOkay, there is no god...on what authority do you make this statement...
I don't. Clearly you do not understand the difference between:
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:41 pm 1. I believe that god does not exist.
2. I do not believe that god exists.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:17 pm...in simpler terms you are victim of the Universe, considering suffering is all powerful, why should I or anyone take you seriously as a victim?
If you haven't the wit to understand the above, it's not me that is a victim.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:02 pmThere are always people who have personal reasons to want to think they've disproved the existence of God.
And they are as ridiculous as the buffoons who think they have proved the existence of some god.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:09 am
But he forgets that there are situations that God rationally CANNOT create, not because of some deficiency of divine power or ability, but simply because those things are self-contradictory and ridiculous.
You are right, Mr. Stupid Khan, god can't create anything funny. Not only because he does not have a sense of humour (not one... not ONE joke in the Bible, both old and new testaments!! That's an achievement), but also because he does not exist.

You forgot this latter part of your argument.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Dubious wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:12 am In spite of our disagreements on the potential abilities of human consciousness to become a cosmic power, your succinct summary in this instance also encapsulates my views in each sentence. Every religion, every god story is just a human artifact best understood as one of history's main consoling metaphors...not to to mention the power it invests in those "unique" humans who are in the business of interpreting that which lies at its center.

When you examine the gods created by man they really do appear as All-Too-Human.
Thanks Dubious, I’m glad we can agree on something.

However, make no mistake about the fact that I do believe that humans definitely need to replace the old “consoling metaphors” with something new.

If anyone expects billions of religious humans to suddenly accept the tenets of materialism and atheism, then they are being naïve, for it will never happen.

I see that despite my pointing-out the futility of arguing over the shaky details of mythological nonsense, members of the forum are still sucked into Drange’s “thought bubble” to do battle.
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seeds
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:57 pm Can an atheist believe without not believing in God?
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...

(in other words, to not believe in a “guiding intelligence” presiding over the universe)

...then what an atheist “has to believe” (by default) is that blind and mindless processes have taken hold of the fabric of reality and somehow managed to fashion it (like a potter’s hands) into a context of order that defies comprehension.

That without the slightest hint of teleological impetus, the noumenal underpinning of the universe (the quantum), not only managed to self-arrange its patterns of information in such a way that would eventually lead to the manifestation of an unthinkably stable setting upon which life (life?) could then effloresce into existence,...

...but also managed to blindly and fortuitously equip that setting with every possible ingredient necessary to enable and sustain the efflorescence throughout its journey to self-awareness.

Now that’s basically what an atheist “has to believe” (again, by default) in order to not believe in a guiding intelligence.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:17 pmOkay, there is no god...on what authority do you make this statement...
WTF? You need an authority to make a statement?

Under what authority do you ask that question in the quote?

Under what authority do you act stupid? Who allowed you to say irrelevant things on a philosophy forum?

You say who? Your minister or preacher? I guess then it's okay. Carry on, keep on saying wholly ignorant things.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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seeds wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:08 pm
That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...

(in other words, to not believe in a “guiding intelligence” presiding over the universe)

...then what an atheist “has to believe” (by default) is that blind and mindless processes have taken hold of the fabric of reality and somehow managed to fashion it (like a potter’s hands) into a context of order that defies comprehension.

That without the slightest hint of teleological impetus, the noumenal underpinning of the universe (the quantum), not only managed to self-arrange its patterns of information in such a way that would eventually lead to the manifestation of an unthinkably stable setting upon which life (life?) could then effloresce into existence,...

...but also managed to blindly and fortuitously equip that setting with every possible ingredient necessary to enable and sustain the efflorescence throughout its journey to self-awareness.

Now that’s basically what an atheist “has to believe” (again, by default) in order to not believe in a guiding intelligence.
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This what you wrote is not impossible, it is very probable. If some quantum differences had occurred in the formation of matter from the chaos after the big bang, then our universe would have reached a stable state also, but that universe would have been different from how ours manifests.

In other words, if the building blocks are different, the complex and stable state can be reached, albeit differently with different results, and there is no miracle about that.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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seeds wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:08 pm That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...

(in other words, to not believe in a “guiding intelligence” presiding over the universe)

...then what an atheist “has to believe” (by default) is that blind and mindless processes have taken hold of the fabric of reality and somehow managed to fashion it (like a potter’s hands) into a context of order that defies comprehension.

That without the slightest hint of teleological impetus, the noumenal underpinning of the universe (the quantum), not only managed to self-arrange its patterns of information in such a way that would eventually lead to the manifestation of an unthinkably stable setting upon which life (life?) could then effloresce into existence,...

...but also managed to blindly and fortuitously equip that setting with every possible ingredient necessary to enable and sustain the efflorescence throughout its journey to self-awareness.

Now that’s basically what an atheist “has to believe” (again, by default) in order to not believe in a guiding intelligence.
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Seeds, you very eloquently wrote down what I believe, and I couldn't have done such a good job.

I firmly believe that you would not find the above ridiculously improbable, had you not been indoctrinated by upbringing and by peers, and by constant reinforcement by your own repetitive thoughts, to be a devoted god-fearing person.

The above quote by you is what is, in my belief system. You find it ridiculous; I find a god-belief ridiculous.

I would say the score so far is 1:1, at halftime.

I appreciate you are a thinking, smart person, with a high intellect, not a stupid dolt like Immanuel Can or Eodnhoj7 which two thrive on faith and on illogical arguments. I don't oppose their belief, although I don't share it; I oppose the fact that they say stupid, irrelevant things time after time on a philosophy forum. I wish the theists on this site would comprise only people like you.

Thanks for being here.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Immanuel Can »

-1- wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:03 pm because he does not exist.
You forgot this latter part of your argument.
Your conclusion is presumed there, not demonstrated. But you know that, I'm sure.
Viveka
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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seeds wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:08 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:57 pm Can an atheist believe without not believing in God?
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...

(in other words, to not believe in a “guiding intelligence” presiding over the universe)

...then what an atheist “has to believe” (by default) is that blind and mindless processes have taken hold of the fabric of reality and somehow managed to fashion it (like a potter’s hands) into a context of order that defies comprehension.

That without the slightest hint of teleological impetus, the noumenal underpinning of the universe (the quantum), not only managed to self-arrange its patterns of information in such a way that would eventually lead to the manifestation of an unthinkably stable setting upon which life (life?) could then effloresce into existence,...

...but also managed to blindly and fortuitously equip that setting with every possible ingredient necessary to enable and sustain the efflorescence throughout its journey to self-awareness.

Now that’s basically what an atheist “has to believe” (again, by default) in order to not believe in a guiding intelligence.
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Exactly! Atheism in this sense is a form of Nihilism in that it denies true meaning to the universe in saying that random, blind causes and selfish-genes caused all of life in its varied and obviously intelligently designed nature.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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seeds wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:08 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...
Etc, etc. Ok seeds; same question to you:
Do you understand the difference between these two sentences?
1. I believe that god does not exist.
2. I do not believe that god exists.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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seeds[/quote wrote: That’s easy, uwot.

In order to not believe in God...

(in other words, to not believe in a “guiding intelligence” presiding over the universe)

...then what an atheist “has to believe” (by default) is that blind and mindless processes have taken hold of the fabric of reality and somehow managed to fashion it (like a potter’s hands) into a context of order that defies comprehension.

That without the slightest hint of teleological impetus, the noumenal underpinning of the universe (the quantum), not only managed to self-arrange its patterns of information in such a way that would eventually lead to the manifestation of an unthinkably stable setting upon which life (life?) could then effloresce into existence,...

...but also managed to blindly and fortuitously equip that setting with every possible ingredient necessary to enable and sustain the efflorescence throughout its journey to self-awareness.

Now that’s basically what an atheist “has to believe” (again, by default) in order to not believe in a guiding intelligence.
_______
No they don't, they can believe no-one has clue and what there is is phenomena.

How are you knowing that the noumena is 'quantum'?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Viveka wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:52 am Exactly! Atheism in this sense is a form of Nihilism in that it denies true meaning to the universe in saying that random, blind causes and selfish-genes caused all of life in its varied and obviously intelligently designed nature.
It only seems to YOU and your kind, Viveka, that it's a form of nihilism. Because you cuddle yourself and wrap yourself in the comfortable (to you) thought that there exists a creator who loves you and protects you, and that that very creator is a winning friend, because there is nothing and nobody bigger than him, and he is definitely on your side.

This sort of psychological self-deception is the reason you feel material atheism is equal to nihilism. You are DEATHLY afraid of a world where there is no god, for you depend for your well-being, for your state of stability, for your feeling of security, on a god, who is mighty, big, and protects you. Without him you are a wet, sick, little puppy, and you want to avoid that.

That's all. There is no nihilism in reality. There is reality in reality, and if it isn't pretty, well, nobody said that reality has to be pretty.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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Arising_uk wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:51 am No they don't, they can believe no-one has clue and what there is is phenomena.

How are you knowing that the noumena is 'quantum'?
Shh, Arising_uk. Adults are talking here.

(But I admit you are actually right: theists and atheists can believe and can believe in anything, in a myriad of different things... whoa, they say the real difference between genius and stupidity is that stupidity has no limits. And that applies to both theists and non-theists, although if you count the number of those who accept or reject the mechanism of neo-Darwinist evolution, and you make that a benchmark for the process of separating the stupid from the non-stupid, then it turns out that there are more stupid theists than atheists by orders of magnitude.)
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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-1- wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:58 am
Arising_uk wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:51 am No they don't, they can believe no-one has clue and what there is is phenomena.

How are you knowing that the noumena is 'quantum'?
Shh, Arising_uk. Adults are talking here.

(But I admit you are actually right: theists and atheists can believe and can believe in anything, in a myriad of different things... whoa, they say the real difference between genius and stupidity is that stupidity has no limits. And that applies to both theists and non-theists, although if you count the number of those who accept or reject the mechanism of neo-Darwinist evolution, and you make that a benchmark for the process of separating the stupid from the non-stupid, then it turns out that there are more stupid theists than atheists by orders of magnitude.)
I'll remember that when making the newest IQ tests. :lol:
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