Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

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uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:47 pm Like I said...a fad. Beliefs come and go, depending on what is trending.
You mean like polytheism, monotheism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Methodism, Quakers, shakers, Mormonism, seventh day adventism, Jehovah witnessism and all the other flash in the panisms?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:18 pmWell if it does not demand a belief that a god does not exist...can I be an atheist and believe in God? It still doesn't explain their obsession with proving a "negative".
Well, it's self-contradictory, but whatever floats your boat. There's nothing to stop you being an agnostic and believing in some god, if you have a mind to.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:18 pmThanks, that is a good way to put it...atheism is daft. I forgot all about that English word...daft...daft...hmm. I will have to get use to using it I guess.
My pleasure.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:10 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:47 pm Like I said...a fad. Beliefs come and go, depending on what is trending.
You mean like polytheism, monotheism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Methodism, Quakers, shakers, Mormonism, seventh day adventism, Jehovah witnessism and all the other flash in the panisms?

They morph through eachother so they have some consistent elements. Atheism is "negation", it could not be observed without the above. The problem is that it cancels itself out eventually....hence "the fad".


Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:18 pmWell if it does not demand a belief that a god does not exist...can I be an atheist and believe in God? It still doesn't explain their obsession with proving a "negative".
Well, it's self-contradictory, but whatever floats your boat. There's nothing to stop you being an agnostic and believing in some god, if you have a mind to.

That is my point exactly it is contradictory as you claim one does not have to believe in god in order to be an atheist, however in order to be an atheist one "has too" not believe in God.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:18 pmThanks, that is a good way to put it...atheism is daft. I forgot all about that English word...daft...daft...hmm. I will have to get use to using it I guess.
My pleasure.
That's daft.
uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:17 pmAtheism is "negation"...
Like I said; you do not have to believe that a god does not exist in order to not believe that it does exist. Do you understand the difference between these two sentences?
1. I believe that god does not exist.
2. I do not believe that god exists.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:41 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:17 pmAtheism is "negation"...
Like I said; you do not have to believe that a god does not exist in order to not believe that it does exist. Do you understand the difference between these two sentences?
1. I believe that god does not exist.
2. I do not believe that god exists.
Do you?

1) "I believe that" = + "god does not exist" = - = Absence of God
2) "I do not believe that" = - "god exists" = + = Absence of belief

Can an atheist believe without not believing in God? Not really without acknowledging the same belief "processes" responsible for the concept of God are responsible for beliefs in other grades of existence.

Can an atheist believe in God and not believe in everything else around him? Not really without acknowledging the same belief "processes" responsible for understanding the grades of existence are responsible for the concept of God also.


God and Belief are synonymous in the respects they are both absences in Atheism because Atheism is strictly negation and nothing more. It exists if and only if the concepts of God and Belief exist as "ideas".


Turn that around, into religious perspective and God and Belief are also synonymous. Religion is strictly positivism (not in the sense of the standard philosophical school. It exists through the concepts of God and Belief as "ideas".
uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:57 pmCan an atheist believe without not believing in God?
What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:57 pmCan an atheist believe without not believing in God?
What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
Himself as equal to God(s), in his ability to inevitably define what he negates (as negation of an something requires a complete definition), and in this respect in a pursuit of greatness individuates himself as "unequal".

If God(s) is percieved as omnipresent, or mediating all reality, then to argue that God(s) do not exist would be to argue in many respects that there is no medial nature to reality.

In this respect the concept of "equality" cannot exist and the atheist contradictory places himself above God(s) or below the God(s), when in reality he is seperating himself from himself as everything we understand of God(s) is through "man" himself.
uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:08 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:57 pmCan an atheist believe without not believing in God?
What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
Himself as equal to God(s), in his ability to inevitably define what he negates (as negation of an something requires a complete definition), and in this respect in a pursuit of greatness individuates himself as "unequal".

If God(s) is percieved as omnipresent, or mediating all reality, then to argue that God(s) do not exist would be to argue in many respects that there is no medial nature to reality.

In this respect the concept of "equality" cannot exist and the atheist contradictory places himself above God(s) or below the God(s), when in reality he is seperating himself from himself as everything we understand of God(s) is through "man" himself.
And once more in English, please.
Simple question; what does 'I don't believe in god' mean?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:05 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:08 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm
What do you think an atheist has to believe, in order to not believe in god?
Himself as equal to God(s), in his ability to inevitably define what he negates (as negation of an something requires a complete definition), and in this respect in a pursuit of greatness individuates himself as "unequal".

If God(s) is percieved as omnipresent, or mediating all reality, then to argue that God(s) do not exist would be to argue in many respects that there is no medial nature to reality.

In this respect the concept of "equality" cannot exist and the atheist contradictory places himself above God(s) or below the God(s), when in reality he is seperating himself from himself as everything we understand of God(s) is through "man" himself.
And once more in English, please.
Simple question; what does 'I don't believe in god' mean?


1) "I believe that" = + "god does not exist" = - = Absence of God
2) "I do not believe that" = - "god exists" = + = Absence of belief

And once more in English, please.
What does it mean to you? You don't believe in god...okay...but "what is this god" you don't believe in?
uwot
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:10 pmWhat does it mean to you? You don't believe in god...okay...but "what is this god" you don't believe in?
It's the same as all the gods you don't believe in + 1.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:35 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:10 pmWhat does it mean to you? You don't believe in god...okay...but "what is this god" you don't believe in?
It's the same as all the gods you don't believe in + 1.
+1 what exactly? What if I believed in everything...then what?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:38 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:35 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:10 pmWhat does it mean to you? You don't believe in god...okay...but "what is this god" you don't believe in?
It's the same as all the gods you don't believe in + 1.
+1 what exactly? What if I believed in everything...then what?
You mean all the gods? It just means I don't believe in any of them, + or - however many you do believe in.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:50 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:38 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:35 pm It's the same as all the gods you don't believe in + 1.
+1 what exactly? What if I believed in everything...then what?
You mean all the gods? It just means I don't believe in any of them, + or - however many you do believe in.
What are you a god to say such things?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by uwot »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 pmWhat are you a god to say such things?
I'm an atheist. It would be a bit weird if I were a god and didn't believe in me.
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

uwot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 pmWhat are you a god to say such things?
I'm an atheist. It would be a bit weird if I were a god and didn't believe in me.
Okay, there is no god...on what authority do you make this statement...in simpler terms you are victim of the Universe, considering suffering is all powerful, why should I or anyone take you seriously as a victim?
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Re: Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 pm Hence the obsession with the Münchhausen Trillema most atheists "logicians" have. You are right, it is strictly emotional, and unfortunately it reflects into their logic.

It just gets boring after awhile hereing "atheism this...", "God doesn't exist...that". Its the same thing over and over again...I think it was G.K. Chesterton who correctly pointed out the "Atheism is a Fad".

And it is an intellectual fad...it will come...and it will go.
It may go for some; for others, I suspect not. There are always people who have personal reasons to want to think they've disproved the existence of God. That's not new. And as I'm sure you suspect, it won't ever entirely disappear. There are always irrational people. But I think that what's over is the impression that Atheism has some sort of vanguard status. Its influence in academia and media surely peaked and waned with Positivism and the '60s. Since then, the world has statistically become more religious, not less.

Even in the modern West, supposedly the best indicator of advancing secularization, we've lately seen a turning toward the metaphysical. For example, the Gallup World Polls (2005-present) indicate that even in supposedly "secularized" Europe very strong beliefs of a more private religious nature persist. What seems to be the case is that many Europeans who claim not to believe in conventional religion still claim to believe in everything from some kind of personally-designed "god" to ghosts, karma and future-telling, the New Age, crystals, lucky charms, mysticism, and meditation; and even more continue prize the use of particularly religious ceremonies to mark occasions. They just don't seem to want to go to the conventional State-sponsored religious institutions -- and who could blame them? But privatized, deformalized and localized religiosities are definitely steaming ahead.

Not all of this is good, of course. But some is. And whatever else one can say, it does not look any longer like the future is secular and Atheistic...not even in Europe. And in the rest of the world, there isn't even a doubt that Atheism's losing. China, Africa, Central and South America are all experiencing massive religious interest of various kinds. Everybody but the Atheists is still interested in asking religious questions.

And I would surmise that that turn of events is not entirely gratifying to the Atheist set. So I would expect them to grind their teeth in impotent rage for some time yet.

Won't do them much good, though.
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