Philosophy Now Forum

M,

Socrates believed Stesichorus the Ancient Greek who lived approximately 640 - 555 BC was the first great poet of the West Greek, Doric dialect group .

Stesichorus was best known for telling epic stories in lyrical rhythm of a piece of poetry, determined by the number and length of feet in a line He was also famous about his life, such as his opposition to the tyrant Phalaris, and the blindness he is said to have suffered and cured by composing verses first insulting and then flattering to Helen of Troy.

Stesichorus was ranked among the nine lyric poets esteemed by the scholars of Hellenistic Alexandria for the basis of the metrical form. Recent discoveries, have enhanced modern understanding of his work, confirming his role as a link between Homer's epic narrative and the lyric narrative poetry

When he lost his eyes, for that was the penalty which was inflicted upon him for reviling the lovely Helen, he at once purged himself. And the purgation was a recantation, which began thus,-

“False is that word of mine-the truth is that thou didst not embark in ships, nor ever go to the walls of Troy; and when he had completed his poem, which is called "the recantation,"Immediately his sight returned to him. Rhetoric is like medicine.

How is art of rhetoric acquired? Socrates believed Pericles to have been the most accomplished of rhetoricians. Pericles acquired his art from his interaction with Anaxagoras who was a Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher.the Presocratic philosophers were called physiology. Anaxagoras was the first philosopher to bring philosophy from Ionia to Athenswhom he happened to know. He was thus imbued with the higher philosophy and his especially popular theme the knowledge of mind and the art of speaking.

BB

I wonder what formal instruction, if any, is offered in the "art of speech" in the secondary schools?

I wonder how many universities offer a separate course in Rhetoric?

And should a Rhetoric course be offered in the philosophy department or by some other department?

In my college, the subject of persuasive speech was covered in a year-long required course (refreshingly, in retrospect) simply called "Speech".

Hi Barbara and Tom,

I am having trouble understanding what the art of rhetoric means exactly....Tom mentioned persuasive speech...you mean like propaganda? Please would you give me some names of people who you feel have the 'art of rhetoric' so that I may read something of theirs and get a 'feel' for what the phrase 'art of rhetoric' means. (oh yeah...and please make it someone recent who I may have prior knowledge of...thanks.)

BB et al

What a great thread title - but My Goodness - it doesn't half cover a lot of water....

And so many questions - What is rhetoric ? Is it 'medicine' ? Is it persuasive speech ? How is the art of rhetoric acquired ?
Should it be taught in school ? So many themes - approaches - I did my usual google and found this :

The Art of Rhetoric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric
• 1 Uses of rhetoric
o 1.1 The scope of rhetoric
o 1.2 Rhetoric as a civic art
o 1.3 Rhetoric as a course of study
o 1.4 Epistemology
• 2 History
o 2.1 The Sophists
o 2.2 Isocrates
o 2.3 Plato
o 2.4 Aristotle
o 2.5 Cicero
o 2.6 Quintilian
o 2.7 Medieval to Enlightenment
o 2.8 Sixteenth century
o 2.9 Seventeenth century New England
o 2.10 Rhetoric in the 18th and 19th centuries
• 3 Modern rhetoric
o 3.1 Notable modern theorists
o 3.2 Methods of analysis
o 3.3 Rhetorical criticism
o 3.4 Contingency and Relativism of Rhetoric
o 3.5 Rhetoric as a Pejorative Term
• 4 French rhetoric
• 5 Chinese rhetoric
• 6 See also
• 7 Notes
• 8 References
• 9 External links

http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search ... y=rhetoric
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-rhetoric/

The latter deals with Plato on rhetoric and poetry.
That alone is enough for me to be getting on with.....

I can see entanglements ahead.....and many, many offshoots....
Fantastico

So - what is rhetoric ?

M.

rhetoric is the tool of the Sophists and lawyers...

-Imp

BB

Thanks so much for starting this thread- I only managed a quick reply this morning.
However, I am interested in what you had to say about Stesichorus as the first great poet of the Doric dialiaect group. I tried to look up more about him and his work. I think he probably deserves a whole thread to himself !

( whenever I see the word 'Doric' I think of the Aberdonian 'doric' !! )

You say ' Recent discoveries, have enhanced modern understanding of his work, confirming his role as a link between Homer's epic narrative and the lyric narrative poetry' - can you point the way, and how this relates to the art of rhetoric ?


BB :....'his poem, which is called "the recantation,"Immediately his sight returned to him. Rhetoric is like medicine'

Is poetry or the writing of poetry a form of rhetoric, then ? And the release of words has a physiological effect ?

Sorry I don't have your depth of reading - but I found this lazy man's guide and will have to read it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stesichorus

Also found one of his poems on poemhunter ?
Season Of Song

Forget the wars.
It is time to sing.
Take out the flute from Phrygia
and recall the songs of our blond Graces.

Clamor of babbling swallows:
it is already spring.


I love that ! is it rhetoric ?

M.

Web-based Instruction on the art of rhetoric ?

' Rhetoric (n) - the art of speaking or writing effectively. (Webster's Definition)
According to Aristotle, rhetoric is "the ability, in each particular case, to see the available means of persuasion." He described three main forms of rhetoric: Ethos, Logos, and Pathos.
In order to be a more effective writer, you must understand these three terms. This site will help you to better understand their meanings and show you how to make your writing more persuasive.'

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/llc/webclass/we ... t1/group4/

It gives 3 brief examples and explanations.

M.

M,

Rhetoric is the art of writing and speech; and a good rhetorician has to know the truth of the speech about to be spoken. The orator is Zeno of Elea lived approximately . 490 BC? – ca. 430 BC?) was a pre-Socratic Greek philosopher of southern Italy and a member of the Eleatic School founded by Parmenides the inventor of the dialectic. Aristotle called Zeno believed Zeno’s principles must be either (a) one or (b) more than one.

Bertrand Russell has described Zeno work "immeasurably subtle and profound" The inventor of dialectic. originally a form of logical argumentation.

Now sophist make a business out of wisdom sophism is a argument used for deceiving someone. In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a group of teachers who specialized in using the tools of knowledge and rhetoric.

Sophists are dealers of wholesale or retail knowledge they go around praising indiscriminately all knowledge without knowing what were really beneficial or hurtful: neither did their purchaser know.

Protagoras the greatest Sophist would carry about his wares of knowledge, and made the rounds of the cities, and sold knowledge to any one paying in want of them, A physician of the soul. Protagoras sold knowledge but there is far greater peril in buying knowledge than in buying meat and drink. If the speaker knows not the first principle, and when their conclusion and intermediate steps are also constructed out of know not what.


BB

Thanks for this site M. I am digesting all that you and Barbara are writing...you too Tom and Imp. It may take me a while as when I hear a new phrase I am not familiar with I have to get a sense of it...my mind doesn't remember well with just reading definitions and learning by rote.

I have to tell you something odd...it's almost like kirky is looking out for me...it seems every I open either/or, another question I just asked is answered...lol...do you think kirky could be God or at least more powerful than the magic eight ball?

Anyway...I don't know what possessed me but I finally broke down and read Alastair Hannay's intro to Either/Or and this quote came to mind when I read the ethos part of Aristotle's lesson in your link. Hannay quotes kirky on what he has to say about Aristotle's ethos...we don' need to stinkin' ethos. Page 7...

" ...Kierkegaard writes that it seems to be his lot to teach the truth, as far as he can find it, but in a way that destroys all his authority. But for someone ready to learn, he says, it doesn't matter whether he is spoken to by 'a Balaam's ass or a guffawing crosspatch or an apostle or an angel'."

M,

Rhetoric is the skill of enchanting the mind, therefore, must know the differences of human emotion in order to convince their certain opinion. Knows that here is a character who ought to have a certain argument applied to a distinctive character.

A rhetoricians knows all this, and knows also when to speak and when to refrain, and how and when to use pithy expressions, pathetic appeals, sensational effects, and all the other styles of speech which must be learned.

But if a rhetorician fails in any of these points, whether in speaking or teaching or writing and says that he or she speaks by the rules of art, and someone let us say, in the audience says, "I don't believe you" that person has the better of the speech.

Writing the same may be said of speech is like painting, only has appearance and yet ask a question words and paintings preserve a solemn silence. You would think that they had intelligence but once written or painted are tumbled about anywhere among those who may know the words or may not and know not how to reply, to whom to. Words are maltreated and abused, they have no parent to protect language; and language cannot protect or defend themselves.

BB

Hi y'all !!

BB - I note that you seem to be addressing only me, although others are 'listening' and responding to the thread topic.
It made me think of an orator on stage who fixes their gaze on only one audience member.

This happened once to me in real life ! I was sitting in the front row, the person talking knew me and found it difficult, for some reason, to address the rest of the group. Although, at 'question time' - there was no choice.

Both quantity and quality of interaction must be important don't you think if someone wishes to persuade, or educate, by speech ?
Again, confidence - knowing your audience - your subject matter - being able to express things in your own words, spiced up a bit with cartoons or quotes or whatever.

I have to go now, but everyone here has provided food for thought - even the silences...

and, of course, a philo discussion forum - should be so buzzing with yummy hunny that it fair gets sticky, doncha think ?

M.

To seekers of good and graceful rhetoric,

Homer and other writers of poetry and even Pericles and others who have composed writings in the form of laws Socrates believed to all of them if their compositions are based on knowledge of the truth, and they can defend or prove them, when they are put to the test, by spoken arguments, which leave their writings poor in comparison of them, then they are to be called, not only poets, orators, legislators, but are worthy of a higher name, philosophers.

Speaking or writing of discourses, a when intelligent words, the living word of knowledge is graven in the mind of the rhetorician when to speak and when to be silent can defend itself,

The serious pursuit of the dialectician, who, by the help of knowledge sows and plants therein words which are able to help themselves and have in them a seed which others brought up in different soils render immortal, making the possessors of he rhetorical skill happy to the utmost extent of human happiness.

Writing or speaking, the different modes of discourse which are adapted to different emotions and how to arrange and dispose of words.

Socrates believed, the rhetorician must be accomplished to handle arguments according to rules of art of teaching or persuading. For not to know the nature of justice and injustice, and good and evil, and not to be able to distinguish the dream from the reality, even though he or she have the applause of the whole world. He believing neither poetry nor prose, spoken or written, is of any great value if, only recited in order to be believed, and not with any knowledge even the best of writings are but a reflections.

The true way of writing, words are comprehensible and faultless as possible and thoughtful in character or manner are in the bosom of the philosopher.

BB

When I talked earlier of the quantity and quality of interaction- what do you think I had in mind ?

M

AS

I'm not ignoring you - sorry I didn't respond directly - I have taken all that you have said on board. Re our friend K. - I've just finished the Intro to Fear and Trembling. Quite a challenge.

M.

PS hope I'm not whispering in class ?

Hi M,

M: Re our friend K. - I've just finished the Intro to Fear and Trembling. Quite a challenge.

AS: Oh good...then it wasn't just me! I hated the intro to Fear and Trembling. The intro to Either/or wasn't bad...in fact I found it enjoyable. However, the text of Fear and Trembling I thought much more enjoyable than Either/Or (if that's possible!) I hope you have the same experience. I could not put it down. I read most of it at Disneyland. At the end of the day...there I was on Main Street...reading in the dark by lamppost. Fireworks began to go off (literally) while I fell in love. The most romantic moment of my life and it has to be with a dead guy! Cruel world...lol.