Apologies

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:06 am

Veggie, it's not as though the old man handled himself well either. He was clearly itching for a fight. It was only his wish to act as gatekeeper-of-the-item-limit that stopped him saying, "I'm in a hurry and only have one item. Would you be kind enough to let me in please?".

I can't say if that would have worked at the time or not, but I expect the final result would have left him (and you) happier.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:46 am

Greta wrote:Veggie, it's not as though the old man handled himself well either. He was clearly itching for a fight. It was only his wish to act as gatekeeper-of-the-item-limit that stopped him saying, "I'm in a hurry and only have one item. Would you be kind enough to let me in please?".

I can't say if that would have worked at the time or not, but I expect the final result would have left him (and you) happier.
Yes. I would have let him in. I suppose our baser instincts got the better of both him and me.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:12 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Yes. I would have let him in. I suppose our baser instincts got the better of both him and me.
Yup. You two are all alone, while the rest of us of course conduct ourselves in exemplary fashion :)

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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:22 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I have just had a similar experience to Greta's. I was in the supermarket 'express lane' (15 items or less) and the person in front of me was holding things up for ages, so I asked the checkout guy where the 'cool bags' were. He said they were at the start of the checkout. I tried to get to them (not holding anyone up), and the old fuck next in the queue refused to moved, just stood there like a malevolent zombie, staring me out. I asked him what the fuck his problem was, and he said 'count your items'. I said 'there are 15' plus some expletives. It got quite ugly, then I thought how I should have smiled and offered him my place in the queue. As it was, my 'flight or fight' mechanism over-rode everything else. What is 'kind'? Someone who only has a weak 'fight or flight' mechanism? Does that necessarily make them a better person? I might have made him feel bad if I had been nice to him. Is that really being 'kind'?
You experienced a classic case of self-sabotage for the unconscious purpose of expressing anger.

- You had already unmindfully passed the bags you wanted. Now you wanted the attention of others to remedy the problem created by your lack of attention to your purpose (grocery shopping). The quiet man would simply end his shopping experience by walking around himself to get the bags.

- You flouted the rules put in place for all. You had more items than permitted for that checkout. Like banks, laws are effective by mutual consent. You’re lucky the old one’s cane didn’t mistake you for a piñata.

- Tactically but not strategically, after exhibiting such selfishness and lawlessness you could have started counting your items and kept them in constant motion to confuse the count. Keep reaching a different tally. Like the professor, keep up a stream of misdirecting chatter about most anything born of yes, such as the weather, the qualities of good tea, or whatever. That would buy time until you could walk around and get the cool bag.

- Neither apology nor anger plays a factor in any of these.

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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:50 pm

Walker wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I have just had a similar experience to Greta's. I was in the supermarket 'express lane' (15 items or less) and the person in front of me was holding things up for ages, so I asked the checkout guy where the 'cool bags' were. He said they were at the start of the checkout. I tried to get to them (not holding anyone up), and the old fuck next in the queue refused to moved, just stood there like a malevolent zombie, staring me out. I asked him what the fuck his problem was, and he said 'count your items'. I said 'there are 15' plus some expletives. It got quite ugly, then I thought how I should have smiled and offered him my place in the queue. As it was, my 'flight or fight' mechanism over-rode everything else. What is 'kind'? Someone who only has a weak 'fight or flight' mechanism? Does that necessarily make them a better person? I might have made him feel bad if I had been nice to him. Is that really being 'kind'?
You experienced a classic case of self-sabotage for the unconscious purpose of expressing anger.

- You had already unmindfully passed the bags you wanted. Now you wanted the attention of others to remedy the problem created by your lack of attention to your purpose (grocery shopping). The quiet man would simply end his shopping experience by walking around himself to get the bags.

- You flouted the rules put in place for all. You had more items than permitted for that checkout. Like banks, laws are effective by mutual consent. You’re lucky the old one’s cane didn’t mistake you for a piñata.

- Tactically but not strategically, after exhibiting such selfishness and lawlessness you could have started counting your items and kept them in constant motion to confuse the count. Keep reaching a different tally. Like the professor, keep up a stream of misdirecting chatter about most anything born of yes, such as the weather, the qualities of good tea, or whatever. That would buy time until you could walk around and get the cool bag.

- Neither apology nor anger plays a factor in any of these.
I didn't flout the rules. I said it was a 15 or less queue.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Apologies

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:52 pm

Greta wrote:uwot's apology thread was presumably deleted due to its toxicity, but it's clear that people were interested in talking about the sincerity and usefulness of apologies. So if anyone had more to say on the subject, they can do it here without the baggage.

The story so far ...

Some felt that apologies were insincere and futile,
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the people!

that their actions were deliberate and, if those actions happened to cut across another's needs, so be it.
See above!

That's life. For them apologies are neither given, accepted nor expected.
"Cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes the colors from our sight, red is gray and yellow white, but we decide which is right, and which is an illusion!" --Moody Blues--

I concur!



Others (including me) think that apologies are usually trivial gestures that help to smooth relations. By my way of thinking, it's similar to saying "hello". It's not actually needed because eye contact makes the connection clear.
Yet there can be no eye contact here.


Yet we greet each other verbally. It's ostensibly a gesture of goodwill but if one is not in the mood for reaching out a greeting might be just conforming to social norms for the sake of peace. Ditto "thank you". The facial expression and other involuntary responses already say all that needs saying, but we verbalise "thanks" anyway - even if it's a present of socks.
Most of my socks have holes in them, so I'd love a gift of socks!

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Re: Apologies

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:10 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I have just had a similar experience to Greta's. I was in the supermarket 'express lane' (15 items or less) and the person in front of me was holding things up for ages, so I asked the checkout guy where the 'cool bags' were. He said they were at the start of the checkout. I tried to get to them (not holding anyone up), and the old fuck next in the queue refused to moved, just stood there like a malevolent zombie, staring me out. I asked him what the fuck his problem was, and he said 'count your items'. I said 'there are 15' plus some expletives. It got quite ugly, then I thought how I should have smiled and offered him my place in the queue. As it was, my 'flight or fight' mechanism over-rode everything else. What is 'kind'? Someone who only has a weak 'fight or flight' mechanism? Does that necessarily make them a better person? I might have made him feel bad if I had been nice to him. Is that really being 'kind'?
Veg...I think you are confusing what I mean by kindness. The kindness you show toward others is not for them necessarily, it's for you. It is the letting go of the petty anger...and it is not easy to do. It's hard. Especially, when everyone seems to act angry these days and quick to punish anyone for the slightest indiscretion.

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Re: Apologies

Post by duszek » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:37 pm

My strategy is:

1. I am only allowed to be surprised, not angry. (heart problems etc.)

2. Non approfondire. = don´t go into details

There is an excellent story by Alberto Moravia with the title "Non approfondire."
After so many years I still remember what it was about.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:46 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I have just had a similar experience to Greta's. I was in the supermarket 'express lane' (15 items or less) and the person in front of me was holding things up for ages, so I asked the checkout guy where the 'cool bags' were. He said they were at the start of the checkout. I tried to get to them (not holding anyone up), and the old fuck next in the queue refused to moved, just stood there like a malevolent zombie, staring me out. I asked him what the fuck his problem was, and he said 'count your items'. I said 'there are 15' plus some expletives. It got quite ugly, then I thought how I should have smiled and offered him my place in the queue. As it was, my 'flight or fight' mechanism over-rode everything else. What is 'kind'? Someone who only has a weak 'fight or flight' mechanism? Does that necessarily make them a better person? I might have made him feel bad if I had been nice to him. Is that really being 'kind'?
Veg...I think you are confusing what I mean by kindness. The kindness you show toward others is not for them necessarily, it's for you. It is the letting go of the petty anger...and it is not easy to do. It's hard. Especially, when everyone seems to act angry these days and quick to punish anyone for the slightest indiscretion.
Actually I agree with you. I would have felt a lot better if I had just smiled and let him go ahead of me. I had thought of doing that in the first place but he pushed my button when he behaved the way he did. What is it with old men and counting checkout items? I don't think women do that.
I don't think Greta said what her reaction was.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:40 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Others (including me) think that apologies are usually trivial gestures that help to smooth relations. By my way of thinking, it's similar to saying "hello". It's not actually needed because eye contact makes the connection clear.
Yet there can be no eye contact here.
That is also data, including the manner of not meeting another's gaze. Add body language and there is much information, especially when taken in context with memories of prior interactions.

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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:59 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Walker wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I have just had a similar experience to Greta's. I was in the supermarket 'express lane' (15 items or less) and the person in front of me was holding things up for ages, so I asked the checkout guy where the 'cool bags' were. He said they were at the start of the checkout. I tried to get to them (not holding anyone up), and the old fuck next in the queue refused to moved, just stood there like a malevolent zombie, staring me out. I asked him what the fuck his problem was, and he said 'count your items'. I said 'there are 15' plus some expletives. It got quite ugly, then I thought how I should have smiled and offered him my place in the queue. As it was, my 'flight or fight' mechanism over-rode everything else. What is 'kind'? Someone who only has a weak 'fight or flight' mechanism? Does that necessarily make them a better person? I might have made him feel bad if I had been nice to him. Is that really being 'kind'?
You experienced a classic case of self-sabotage for the unconscious purpose of expressing anger.

- You had already unmindfully passed the bags you wanted. Now you wanted the attention of others to remedy the problem created by your lack of attention to your purpose (grocery shopping). The quiet man would simply end his shopping experience by walking around himself to get the bags.

- You flouted the rules put in place for all. You had more items than permitted for that checkout. Like banks, laws are effective by mutual consent. You’re lucky the old one’s cane didn’t mistake you for a piñata.

- Tactically but not strategically, after exhibiting such selfishness and lawlessness you could have started counting your items and kept them in constant motion to confuse the count. Keep reaching a different tally. Like the professor, keep up a stream of misdirecting chatter about most anything born of yes, such as the weather, the qualities of good tea, or whatever. That would buy time until you could walk around and get the cool bag.

- Neither apology nor anger plays a factor in any of these.
I didn't flout the rules. I said it was a 15 or less queue.
Well then, did you really call the old pensioner a bleeding liar to his face?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:05 am

Walker wrote: Well then, did you really call the old pensioner a bleeding liar to his face?
No. I grabbed his zimmer-frame and bashed him over the head with it.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:58 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Walker wrote: Well then, did you really call the old pensioner a bleeding liar to his face?
No. I grabbed his zimmer-frame and bashed him over the head with it.
"Gosh. I don't know what came over me! Please accept my apologies. Oh, and while you're down there, do you mind terribly if I just lean over like ... this and just get those cool bags? Excellent. Ta very much. Sorry again. Damn rotten luck, eh? Good luck with your recovery. Bye!"

uwot
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Re: Apologies

Post by uwot » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:05 am

Greta wrote: Please accept my apologies.
I wouldn't bother, Greta.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:22 am

uwot wrote:
Greta wrote: Please accept my apologies.
I wouldn't bother, Greta.
U, you really must apologise after clobbering an old grump with his zimmer frame. It's the right thing to do.

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