What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

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Philosophy Explorer
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What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

I used to work in sales. In my earlier stage, prospects would say I sound like a robot or ask if I'm reading from a script? Eventually I made adjustments which boosted my sales, led to fewer people hanging up on me, etc.

A number of questions arise which I'll now pose. Does sounding natural (whatever that means) go hand-in-hand with language development? Do professionals, on average, have a better grasp on language than the general population of a country and do they sound more natural? Do you think that apps (Talking Girl Friend e.g.) are getting better at communication while sounding more natural?

What do you think?

PhilX
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I used to work in sales. In my earlier stage, prospects would say I sound like a robot or ask if I'm reading from a script? Eventually I made adjustments which boosted my sales, led to fewer people hanging up on me, etc.

A number of questions arise which I'll now pose. Does sounding natural (whatever that means) go hand-in-hand with language development? Do professionals, on average, have a better grasp on language than the general population of a country and do they sound more natural? Do you think that apps (Talking Girl Friend e.g.) are getting better at communication while sounding more natural?

What do you think?

PhilX
I agree that their should be no such thing as 'sounding natural,' as you seem to indicate. But in fact I see it as a kind of monkey see, monkey do, mentality. Where to sound natural is to feed off others as they feed off you. This is in fact the essence of socialization. We're largely simply mocking birds. One sounds unnatural when their agenda leaves no room for the give and take, 'normal,' method of interacting.

A salesman is successful when they can appear to conform to this give and take ritual, while still guiding their consumer. Which is why I could never be a salesman. To me it's highly unethical for 'anyone' to sell anyone anything, for 'their own' personal gain. Especially if the one being sold really doesn't want/need that which is being sold, but are instead somehow convinced that they do.
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by duszek »

The opposite of "natural" is probably "fake", "theatrical", "performed", "rehearsed".

If you sound natural you don´t take your interlocutor for granted, you offer something to him and see what happens, you are curious for his reply as a unique human mind in the univers.

Otherwise the person feels manipulated (squeezed into a scenario against his will) and prefers to leave as soon as possible.

Unless he also likes to manipulate and so engages in a battle of manipulation attempts.
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

To help this discussion, I'm going to bring up a certain scenario which should have you think harder. Let's focus on (outbound) telemarketing where the prospect is called up at his/her home. You (the telemarketer) are reading from a script, verbatim. This means no alterations to your pitch or presentation on the product and/or service.

I maintain that the "selling words" are secondary. I can take two different people, have them say the same thing and know who will have more success at selling (as to why, my speculation is that one of the reasons would be the factor of decision-making). Later on this skill was further developed.

With regards to manipulation, one of the studies I did related to buyer remorse. There, I gave away Starz for free (for one month). Two months later I looked up the accounts I set up Starz on expecting a major dump (after the customers got their bills on Starz which went for $5 a month). To my surprise, only 24% of the customers dumped Starz.

How many customers are needed for a reliable study is open to debate. However there are a number of ways of telling if you had achieved something. Manipulation? Not in legitimate selling.

Here's a great question that relates to what we're discussing. Is there any free will in selling?

PhilX
Last edited by Philosophy Explorer on Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

duszek wrote:The opposite of "natural" is probably "fake", "theatrical", "performed", "rehearsed".

If you sound natural you don´t take your interlocutor for granted, you offer something to him and see what happens, you are curious for his reply as a unique human mind in the univers.

Otherwise the person feels manipulated (squeezed into a scenario against his will) and prefers to leave as soon as possible.

Unless he also likes to manipulate and so engages in a battle of manipulation attempts.
Unlike sales, philosophy dictates manipulation, whether one 'fears' it or not, because one has to manipulate postulate, in it's testing, otherwise one buys swampland and therefore can't really build upon it, though they possibly believe otherwise.

The truth is all that matters, as it always sets one free, allowing them to grow, whether it's liked or not OR they forever remain blissful in ignorance. Though I truly believe that one 'can' eventually be blissful in complete knowledge, though it's complicated.
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:To help this discussion, I'm going to bring up a certain scenario which should have you think harder. Let's focus on (outbound) telemarketing where the prospect is called up at his/her home. You (the telemarketer) are reading from a script, verbatim. This means no alterations to your pitch or presentation on the product and/or service.

I maintain that the "selling words" are secondary. I can take two different people, have them say the same thing and know who will have more success at selling (as to why, my speculation is that one of the reasons would be the factor of decision-making). Later on this skill was further developed.
But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit.

With regards to manipulation, one of the studies I did related to buyer remorse. There, I gave away Starz for free (for one month). Two months later I looked up the accounts I set up Starz on expecting a major dump (after the customers got their bills on Starz which went for $5 a month). To my surprise, only 24% of the customers dumped Starz.
There could be many reasons 'why' the ones that did not cancel their subscriptions, did not, as well as otherwise.

How many customers are needed for a reliable study is open to debate. However there are a number of ways of telling if you had achieved something. Manipulation?

Not in legitimate selling.
In my book, there is no such thing as legitimate selling, only legitimate buying. Actually no one can 'sell' me anything, yet I have 'bought' many things. In other words, the selling is only ever in my mind, and my mind alone. I'm the only one that posits worth in anything I've bought.


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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?

PhilX
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Some people are just better actors than others. Listen to good actors. They sound completely 'natural', but really it's anything but. They are simply repeating what they have read from a script, but manage to make it sound like normal conversation.
Sales people could benefit from acting lessons, or from watching actors carefully. If you imagine that they are reading from a script, at the same time as watching them, it gives you a bit of insight into what they are doing to achieve the 'natural' effect. Same with stand-up comedians. It's all about timing, inflection, tone, body language....You have to be careful not to end up sounding like a 'ham' though. :D
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
No it's not. It's physically impossible for any two people to deliver language in the exact same tone or phraseology. Listen to the best impressionists, even though they do a good job of mimicking another, there are differences.

But let's get serious, if their voice was compared with a frequency analyzer, over the course of the entire script, from 20Hz to 20kHz, there would be no exactness of delivery whatsoever. Voices in this context, would be just as individual as fingerprints or handwriting.


Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?
No, I'm an expert in 'sound.' I worked with it while in the employ with the US DOD for 16 years. That and Electromagnetic Energy.

PhilX
Tell me what you were taught it was? You realize that pitch, tone and frequency are the same thing, right? But let's not forget amplitude either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voic ... cal_timbre
"The sound of each individual's voice is entirely unique not only because of the actual shape and size of an individual's vocal cords but also due to the size and shape of the rest of that person's body, especially the vocal tract, and the manner in which the speech sounds are habitually formed and articulated." --wikipedia--

"...English stressed syllables have a higher pitch than unstressed syllables..."

"All verbal languages use pitch to express emotional and other paralinguistic information and to convey emphasis, contrast, and other such features in what is called intonation..."

"English is a strongly stressed language."

"Stress is typically signaled by such properties as increased loudness and vowel length, full articulation of the vowel, and changes in pitch."

All the above quotes come compliments of --wikipedia--

The point: Monotone doesn't really enter the picture at all; no one can sound like anyone else; language naturally has varying frequencies; pitch, amplitude, phraseology and inflections are the differences between us with respect to our speaking.

Of course you've now deleted your reference to monotone, good catch! ;)
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
No it's not. It's physically impossible for any two people to deliver language in the exact same tone or phraseology. Listen to the best impressionists, even though they do a good job of mimicking another, there are differences.

But let's get serious, if their voice was compared with a frequency analyzer, over the course of the entire script, from 20Hz to 20kHz, there would be no exactness of delivery whatsoever. Voices in this context, would be just as individual as fingerprints or handwriting.


Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?
No, I'm an expert in 'sound.' I worked with it while in the employ with the US DOD for 16 years. That and Electromagnetic Energy.

PhilX
Tell me what you were taught it was? You realize that pitch, tone and frequency are the same thing, right? But let's not forget amplitude either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voic ... cal_timbre
"The sound of each individual's voice is entirely unique not only because of the actual shape and size of an individual's vocal cords but also due to the size and shape of the rest of that person's body, especially the vocal tract, and the manner in which the speech sounds are habitually formed and articulated." --wikipedia--

"...English stressed syllables have a higher pitch than unstressed syllables..."

"All verbal languages use pitch to express emotional and other paralinguistic information and to convey emphasis, contrast, and other such features in what is called intonation..."

"English is a strongly stressed language."

"Stress is typically signaled by such properties as increased loudness and vowel length, full articulation of the vowel, and changes in pitch."

All the above quotes come compliments of --wikipedia--

The point: Monotone doesn't really enter the picture at all; no one can sound like anyone else; language naturally has varying frequencies; pitch, amplitude, phraseology and inflections are the differences between us with respect to our speaking.

Of course you've now deleted your reference to monotone, good catch! ;)
Now let me ask you a simple question. Can you define what is meant by a sales voice? Can you tell beforehand who's going to be successful at sales and who isn't? I have the same voice that I started with from childhood. Yet my sales production went up phenomenally. Psychologists did a study to see if they can find the traits that make for a sales voice or personality (they failed). I otoh, directly and indirectly, trained two people to boost their production.

I do know.

PhilX
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
No it's not. It's physically impossible for any two people to deliver language in the exact same tone or phraseology. Listen to the best impressionists, even though they do a good job of mimicking another, there are differences.

But let's get serious, if their voice was compared with a frequency analyzer, over the course of the entire script, from 20Hz to 20kHz, there would be no exactness of delivery whatsoever. Voices in this context, would be just as individual as fingerprints or handwriting.


Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?
No, I'm an expert in 'sound.' I worked with it while in the employ with the US DOD for 16 years. That and Electromagnetic Energy.

PhilX
Tell me what you were taught it was? You realize that pitch, tone and frequency are the same thing, right? But let's not forget amplitude either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voic ... cal_timbre
"The sound of each individual's voice is entirely unique not only because of the actual shape and size of an individual's vocal cords but also due to the size and shape of the rest of that person's body, especially the vocal tract, and the manner in which the speech sounds are habitually formed and articulated." --wikipedia--

"...English stressed syllables have a higher pitch than unstressed syllables..."

"All verbal languages use pitch to express emotional and other paralinguistic information and to convey emphasis, contrast, and other such features in what is called intonation..."

"English is a strongly stressed language."

"Stress is typically signaled by such properties as increased loudness and vowel length, full articulation of the vowel, and changes in pitch."

All the above quotes come compliments of --wikipedia--

The point: Monotone doesn't really enter the picture at all; no one can sound like anyone else; language naturally has varying frequencies; pitch, amplitude, phraseology and inflections are the differences between us with respect to our speaking.

Of course you've now deleted your reference to monotone, good catch! ;)
Now let me ask you a simple question. Can you define what is meant by a sales voice? Can you tell beforehand who's going to be successful at sales and who isn't? I have the same voice that I started with from childhood. Yet my sales production went up phenomenally. Psychologists did a study to see if they can find the traits that make for a sales voice or personality (they failed). I otoh, directly and indirectly, trained two people to boost their production.

I do know.
Yet you still cannot define what it is, so I doubt that you could have trained anyone. You do realize that anything you consciously changed to achieve those results, does not necessarily indicate that the results were due to those changes. There could have been other changes you were not conscious of that actually did the trick, or it could just be coincidence, attributed to other factors, you have not accounted for. I bet you did not employ the scientific method to assure your results were conclusive.

Outline the scientific method you employed.



PhilX
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
No it's not. It's physically impossible for any two people to deliver language in the exact same tone or phraseology. Listen to the best impressionists, even though they do a good job of mimicking another, there are differences.

But let's get serious, if their voice was compared with a frequency analyzer, over the course of the entire script, from 20Hz to 20kHz, there would be no exactness of delivery whatsoever. Voices in this context, would be just as individual as fingerprints or handwriting.


Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?
No, I'm an expert in 'sound.' I worked with it while in the employ with the US DOD for 16 years. That and Electromagnetic Energy.

PhilX[/quote]
Tell me what you were taught it was? You realize that pitch, tone and frequency are the same thing, right? But let's not forget amplitude either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voic ... cal_timbre
"The sound of each individual's voice is entirely unique not only because of the actual shape and size of an individual's vocal cords but also
Yet you still cannot define what it is, so I doubt that you could have trained anyone. You do realize that anything you consciously changed to achieve those results, does not necessarily indicate that the results were due to those changes. There could have been other changes you were not conscious of that actually did the trick, or it could just be coincidence, attributed to other factors, you have not accounted for. I bet you did not employ the scientific method to assure your results were conclusive.

Outline the scientific method you employed.



PhilX[/quote][/quote]

For myself, keeping track of my sales with the changes I made. The others told me my idea worked (now part of this is what you think is the suitable scientific method, e.g. how big a sample is required and other factors. Also note we're talking through the internet where you don't know me and I don't know you so no matter what I say, you'll remain skeptical unless you try my idea which is the only way you'll be convinced and I'm not revealing my discovery).

I can say the system can't be improved and it is known in a weakened form in showbiz. Later I will indicate what led to the final step in my system.

PhilX
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:SOB said:

"But in fact there has to be varying pitch and/or phraseology, otherwise any two sellers would be just as effective/ineffective. That which is beyond the selling words are inflections in the voice, which are largely variations in pitch and is that which has more power in conveying the buyers benefit."

This is false (one of the mistakes a manager has made).
No it's not. It's physically impossible for any two people to deliver language in the exact same tone or phraseology. Listen to the best impressionists, even though they do a good job of mimicking another, there are differences.

But let's get serious, if their voice was compared with a frequency analyzer, over the course of the entire script, from 20Hz to 20kHz, there would be no exactness of delivery whatsoever. Voices in this context, would be just as individual as fingerprints or handwriting.


Are you experienced at selling? How did you come to this conclusion?
No, I'm an expert in 'sound.' I worked with it while in the employ with the US DOD for 16 years. That and Electromagnetic Energy.

PhilX
Tell me what you were taught it was? You realize that pitch, tone and frequency are the same thing, right? But let's not forget amplitude either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voic ... cal_timbre
"The sound of each individual's voice is entirely unique not only because of the actual shape and size of an individual's vocal cords but also
Yet you still cannot define what it is, so I doubt that you could have trained anyone. You do realize that anything you consciously changed to achieve those results, does not necessarily indicate that the results were due to those changes. There could have been other changes you were not conscious of that actually did the trick, or it could just be coincidence, attributed to other factors, you have not accounted for. I bet you did not employ the scientific method to assure your results were conclusive.

Outline the scientific method you employed.



PhilX[/quote][/quote]

For myself, keeping track of my sales with the changes I made. The others told me my idea worked (now part of this is what you think is the suitable scientific method, e.g. how big a sample is required and other factors. Also note we're talking through the internet where you don't know me and I don't know you so no matter what I say, you'll remain skeptical unless you try my idea which is the only way you'll be convinced and I'm not revealing my discovery).

I can say the system can't be improved and it is known in a weakened form in showbiz. Later I will indicate what led to the final step in my system.

PhilX[/quote]
I knew you would pull that bit highlighted in green above, it was a no brainer. And I could really care less, either way.

The truth is you said that two could recite exactly from a script, one not knowing your method and the other knowing it, and the one knowing it would sell more without changing a word, their phraseology (groupings, pauses), or their tone/frequency/pitch, or without including any vocal inflections whatsoever, and I'm here to tell you, that it can't be done!

P.S. You cold never sell me anything, I'm unsellable. ;) <-- case in point. ;)
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Over ten years ago I was working for Cablevision (a cable company). At the time I was doing about four times my sales quota. Recently I had gotten access to the internet so I looked up sales tips.

A certain sale tip said to let the caller know the name of the company he was calling to confirm he was calling the right place so as a part of my announcement I included the name of the company. I ran the test for two months and I saw my production jump to almost six times quota.

So it appeared the idea was working, but it wasn't. A problem developed in the interim when I discovered that the customers were already electronically greeted with the name of the company being announced. This had me thinking until I was able to relate what had happened to other parts of my system that I discovered years before.

This meant another test was in order which I ran for six months. I rearranged my announcement yet again, deleting out the name Cablevision. After the six-month period came to an end, I ran through the calculations and saw my sales had risen to ten times the quota (10.01 more exactly), on average.

It's a myth about sales voices. The only thing you need is being able to talk.

PhilX
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Re: What does it mean for a human to "sound natural?"

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

SOB said:

"P.S. You cold never sell me anything, I'm unsellable. ;) <-- case in point. ;)"

I wouldn't waste my time trying (and I no longer rely on sales rebuttals).

PhilX
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