The art of persuasion

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:36 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Try not to be persuasive.

PhilX
Not sure I can be persuaded by that. :)
Sales experience.

PhilX
FCS,

I will give you a fuller answer. Back around 2003, between
one- and two-million telemarketers lost their jobs in the US due to the use of objection rebuttals, those so-called sales persuaders, which led to the federal DNC list. So I speak from experience.

PhilX

ForCruxSake
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:48 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by ForCruxSake » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:03 pm

thedoc wrote:My grandchildren are getting to the age where I can explain things to them, If I have the time and the knowledge, but sometimes when we are getting ready to go somewhere, I just need them to move and usually it's a delaying action on their part. Just tonight at the dinner table we were discussing something and I took the time to explain things. At times like that I'm more than happy to show off, and try to impress them with my superior knowledge. It' just when My granddaughter (who is 7) says something and is corrected by my grandson, (who is 11) that I step in and tell them to stop arguing, and then I usually tell them what is correct. Sometimes they will counter by saying their teacher told them, but I have an ace in the hole, I remind them that I used to be a teacher, and know better.
I wish I could say I had respect for all teachers. It's undeniable that we come away remembering one or two because they were amazingly good, but it must be equally true of the teachers we hated. It's in retrospect that I realise that I hated certain teachers either because they couldn't teach or because they hated teaching and blamed it on us.

It's different now. Children seem to know and , whilst they still can't express it to their school authorities, they do talk amongst themselves and with parents lucky enough to have children who don't lock them out in adolescence.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:17 am

ForCruxSake wrote: I wish I could say I had respect for all teachers.
Me too, but early on I discovered that teachers were often wrong, both in HS and college, they just didn't know everything they thought they did.

My biggest problem is when a teacher presents the information, and then implies that what they have presented is all there is. I got into this with my one daughter, we were discussing some subject, and I forget what, but I tried to tell her that there was more to the subject, but she insisted that what her teacher said was all there was.

BTW, I quit teaching because I didn't want to end up killing a student, but later I decided I wasn't very good at it.

ForCruxSake
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:48 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by ForCruxSake » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:45 am

thedoc wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote: I wish I could say I had respect for all teachers.
Me too, but early on I discovered that teachers were often wrong, both in HS and college, they just didn't know everything they thought they did.

My biggest problem is when a teacher presents the information, and then implies that what they have presented is all there is. I got into this with my one daughter, we were discussing some subject, and I forget what, but I tried to tell her that there was more to the subject, but she insisted that what her teacher said was all there was.
Oliver Stone came up with the 'Untold History of the United States' with a Harvard academic, when his kids were coming home from school and (incorrectly) retelling him history, they had learned at school, that he had lived through. He was outraged. That says more about the curriculum than teachers, but he's not that old. You'd think if he could question what they were teaching, presumably they should have been able to, too.

I had a Government and Politics teacher, at A level, who was so good, he put me off the subject. As he taught, he would enlighten you, with regard to a situation, by highlighting it or contradicting it with some fact he had actually lived through. It was an interesting way to remember what you were supposed to learn, but I just remember loathing Government and Politics, whilst loving his teaching. I still remember much of what he said. Amazing teacher.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:19 am

Just one example how wrong a teacher can be, in a civics class a teacher said all the North Vietnamese needed to do was to fly in low with a bomber, and drop a bomb down the smoke stack of a Battleship to sink it. He totally did not understand the difficulty of flying low, hitting a target as small as a smoke stack at supersonic speed, and the fact that Battleships had armored grills at the bottom of the stack to stop bombs from penetrating the engine rooms, not to mention the anti-aircraft fire that would disrupt the pilots concentration on hitting the target. He was totally idiotic as to how easy it would be to hit an american Battleship, or any warship, under those conditions. He was perhaps thinking of Billy Mitchell's demonstration of sinking an obsolete German, unmanned, stationary Battleship, as proving how easy it would be to sink a battle ready, underway, manned and fighting back Battleship under combat conditions. He really demonstrated how stupid he was.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:37 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sales experience.

PhilX
FCS,

I will give you a fuller answer. Back around 2003, between
one- and two-million telemarketers lost their jobs in the US due to the use of objection rebuttals, those so-called sales persuaders, which led to the federal DNC list. So I speak from experience.

PhilX
In all consciousness I couldn't sell someone something that they didn't need. I turned down a job selling vacuum sweepers to people that didn't need them once. I went along with a high pressure salesman on a call to a retired couple and was left with the task of getting more names while the salesman went off on another call. The couple didn't need the sweeper or the incentives, but they agreed just to get rid of the salesman. If the person needs or wants the item, and calls to buy, that's one thing, but to call someone and push something they don't need just to get a sale is quite another, and unethical.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:53 am

Another example of why my hobby shop went out, I was too honest. Someone came in and bought a train and track, kept it over Christmas and then brought it back, saying they couldn't make it work. I knew they were lying, but couldn't prove it, so I took it back and gave him a refund. I didn't see him again, and it's just as well, I didn't need the dishonest customer.

ForCruxSake
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:48 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by ForCruxSake » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:03 am

thedoc wrote:Another example of why my hobby shop went out, I was too honest. Someone came in and bought a train and track, kept it over Christmas and then brought it back, saying they couldn't make it work. I knew they were lying, but couldn't prove it, so I took it back and gave him a refund. I didn't see him again, and it's just as well, I didn't need the dishonest customer.
I thought that the 400% markup on goods was intended to cover such 'overheads', whatever the reason for a return?

Insurance is the same. False claims drive up the cost for everyone else. Somehow everyone's greed is covered by someone else and, at its worst, just encourages greed in others, who feel the need to level the unfairness of what they feel they are expected to pay to cover for the sins of others. Vicious circle. Just plain vicious, if you ask me, :cry:

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:42 am

ForCruxSake wrote:
thedoc wrote:Another example of why my hobby shop went out, I was too honest. Someone came in and bought a train and track, kept it over Christmas and then brought it back, saying they couldn't make it work. I knew they were lying, but couldn't prove it, so I took it back and gave him a refund. I didn't see him again, and it's just as well, I didn't need the dishonest customer.
I thought that the 400% markup on goods was intended to cover such 'overheads', whatever the reason for a return?

Insurance is the same. False claims drive up the cost for everyone else. Somehow everyone's greed is covered by someone else and, at its worst, just encourages greed in others, who feel the need to level the unfairness of what they feel they are expected to pay to cover for the sins of others. Vicious circle. Just plain vicious, if you ask me, :cry:
In the hobby industry, I had a 40'% mark up, and I was expected to discount the items I sold, 50% on telescopes which didn't sell very well, but I bought everything I could that sold. Magazines were only 20% with a full refund for unsold copies, but they didn't pay the rent, they barely paid for themselves. The local flying club would tell customers that I sent to them, not to go back to the hobby store, but to buy everything mail order, it was cheaper. I soon stopped sending customers to them.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:50 am

ForCruxSake wrote: I thought that the 400% markup on goods was intended to cover such 'overheads', whatever the reason for a return?
You are delusional if you think that any retail business, that deals with a product, has a 400% mark up. That may be true in the insurance business, but certainly not in a retail business that deals with a product.

ForCruxSake
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:48 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by ForCruxSake » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:04 am

thedoc wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote: I thought that the 400% markup on goods was intended to cover such 'overheads', whatever the reason for a return?
You are delusional if you think that any retail business, that deals with a product, has a 400% mark up. That may be true in the insurance business, but certainly not in a retail business that deals with a product.
I was always led to believe that the price of something is 4-5 times what it costs to make. It is supposed to cover all the overheads, breakages etc. I thought it was a simple business rule. Apologies, if I've got it wrong. Is 40% a standard mark up?

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:04 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:
thedoc wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote: I thought that the 400% markup on goods was intended to cover such 'overheads', whatever the reason for a return?
You are delusional if you think that any retail business, that deals with a product, has a 400% mark up. That may be true in the insurance business, but certainly not in a retail business that deals with a product.
I was always led to believe that the price of something is 4-5 times what it costs to make. It is supposed to cover all the overheads, breakages etc. I thought it was a simple business rule. Apologies, if I've got it wrong. Is 40% a standard mark up?
In the hobby business the standard markup from the distributor to the retailer is 40% for most goods, Magazines were around 20% but I might have that figure wrong, it's been just over 20 years. Astronomical telescopes were 50%, and occasionally the distributor would have a special that was at a much lower price from retail. Once one of my distributors had a special on a set of HO passenger cars, and then just before Christmas a local store was selling the same set at a lower price than I could buy it for, they were using it as a "loss leader" just to get people into the store. You mentioned the retail price being about 4 - 5 times the cost of manufacturing, that might be a bit high, but you need to account for the manufacture covering costs making a profit, the distributor covering cost making a profit, and then the retail store covering cost making a profit, no-one works for free. I don't know what the mark up was for the manufacture and distributor, but like I said, no-one works for free.

Impenitent
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by Impenitent » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 am

thedoc wrote:...Once one of my distributors had a special on a set of HO passenger cars, and then just before Christmas a local store was selling the same set at a lower price than I could buy it for...
since it was Christmas, if you bought 3, did you get a Santa Claus too?

-Imp

osgart
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by osgart » Mon May 01, 2017 1:10 am

is conviction with promise. otherwise your selling junk.

thedoc
Posts: 5690
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The art of persuasion

Post by thedoc » Fri May 05, 2017 11:44 pm

osgart wrote:is conviction with promise. otherwise your selling junk.
I tried to avoid selling junk. The particular set of Passenger cars I was selling was marketed by a company that was selling another manufactures product. I once tried to explain to a customer that the cars were a good product but the engine marketed and manufactured by the same company was junk. He just couldn't grasp that one item sold by a particular company was good and the matching product by the same company was junk. He seemed to think that if one item sold by that company was good, then all products sold by that company should also be good.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest