Comunication and why my name.

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TSBU
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Comunication and why my name.

Postby TSBU » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:02 pm

I'm posting this just cause I was asked to do so.

Like every human conscious move, we comunicate in order to get something. Even if we can't put in words to ourselves what exactly do we want, if we are searching, we are still looking for something.

In comunication, that something is (should be), to learn from the other person, or to show something to the other person.

We all know what "learn" means to ourselves, but I think that many people can't really know what exactly do they want when they want what they express by "showing something" to other person.

Showing something means changing his mind, his thoughts (and so, his moves, cause every thought has a direct relation with our moves, and if it doesn't, it isn't a thought and it would be the same having ir or not), in other words, showing something is making a person think and act like you want (that’s out of beeing that good or bad for the person, want that person to conect and integrate what you put with the rest or not, etc).

Usually, we don't search for one of those things, I'd say more, usually, people talk without thinking in what do they want, as a way to keep their mind "clear", cause information is everywhere, including lies, and making noise allows to stop information entering in our head, because we use comunication a lot of time, and we can't think properly in how to use it, we "move on insctint" when we do it, that's how we started to talk, and, better or worse, we can learn and show something that way too. After all, comunication, like thinking, implies trying, implies mistakes to search how to do something.

But you can say "yep, but we grow up (except some people in this forum), and we can now use logic, and learn with that, istead of saying noises and see how people reacts to them to know new words and meanings”.

True. But that's not enough, and that, the "Use logic, be rational" is ironically a thing that stop people from comunication when they reach a point. Why? cause every fucking single human thinks that he is the one being logic and rational, the one who is showing proves, the one who doesn't say fallacies, etc. And, at the same time, the strange people who “see further”, get used to not be understood, so even when they treat with each other, they think that they are not going to be understood. Years of history with humans killing each other in the name of rationality (even in the crusades), and still, it's a common thought. "They are not being rational".
Everybody is rational, in the sense of trying the best they can to build a mind to make them happy etc. Some people are stupid in the common sense of that Word (not complicated thoughts, slow thinking, etc), some people have by nature or by what the’ve found, a psichology that makes them make more mistakes (lazy, anxious, human…), but everybody do mistakes, and everybody tries, by definition of mistake, something that we all understand (As all humans understand the concepts yes and no) to do the less they can.

Human mind has levels, and when you start to talk, you can’t touch other core (except in strange situations were a person mind has suffer a lot recently or things like that), cause your core isn't something that changes every fucking minute, you can't analyze it all the time, that's what we have a core for, in order to not thinking again everything all the time. You start whith the surface.

And, even though we have some things in common, in our core, in our hardware, we are not equal, in surface, or in the core: There is no need to have the same truth for many things, sometimes, the simple want to show something is a mistake. Starting by tastes, a good example is sex. I don't need everybody in the world to like the same things I do. But, out of tastes... have you ever tried to show a "clear thought" to a person? Something you are sure about, something evident for you, but that person won't understand no matter what. Say... causality, other common argument in this forums. Why do I need to show a person that causality and mechanicism don't deny "freedom"? (Or the oposite way) What are the implications of that going to be in real life?

Yeah, it's good to share knowledges sometimes, but, again... suppose that you find a complety idiot who is doing idiotic things all the time (maybe me, for many posters here :D), he is stupid (in your eyes), even if you could show him all you know... he would learn something wrong in the next minutes, cause that person is stupid. It's a waste of resources trying to show more things than "don't disturb" to that person. You must think not only in what you show with words, but what you show about yourself when you do things like talk. Many people can’t think because of the enormous “free” input that makes life easy without the thinking that other people has done. So they don’t think, and they are never sure of anything if they don’t find more people who agree. (And that’s good in some cases).

I can put lot of examples, but people tend tos ay me that my examples are “too simple” and they understand them as “insults”… so…
But just think in all the talks about religion, about politics, in all the “what is…” etc… in the end… look at the whole fórum. It’s a mess XD and people usually can’t or in any way won’t start comunicating better.

Comunication is a comlicated thing, and, usually, we can only... "give something more" to make a person doubt about his core. We have a surface all of we, made with our core, that surface ALLWAYS stop things to get to the core, it's part of his function. It’s funny to hear people talking about “open minds” cause they nearly always are the more blind heads. All what they say is “open to me”. Many times, all what people want to do, sometimes even without knowing what do they want to add to the core (except "pay me attention") is doubt, is "breaking the shield".

Inflicting pain and pleasure, rewards and punishment, is part of comunication. And it’s (OOOOOOOBIOUUSLYYYYYYYY) needed.

Why do people want attention? Why do they try to show that they are “the best thinker” the one who holds the truth. Two reasons, one, showing a truth (rare), the other one, because they fear isolation if they don’t give something good. That’s a reason for many comunication garbage and noise, many people repeat things, and talk about things they don’t understand, cause they want everybody to be in a state where they can’t see distinction between they and the rest of humans.

The core is mostly responsible of our thoughts, so when we talk, we are usually trying to replicate our core, part of it at least, in other people thoughts, and at the same time, pick things from other people cores, if we are not trying to stay in the surface (like... wait, the light is red, that's in the surface), we try to learn.

Saying how important comunication is would be even more evident than the rest of the thread.

Comunication is bilateral, we make a common language by talking, the longer and deeper people talk, the better it is their language (and so, many couples can understand a lot with just a short noise). If you want to get deeper into the mind of something, put something in his core, you have to understand that person, even if that person is wrong, that is… trying to put the mistake in your head. It can be very confusing if you do it with a big head (We should know the risks of looking into the abyss…) why? Cause every person has his own structure, and you can’t even express your thoughts if you don’t use that person’s definitions and structures (encapsulation).

Here, in this forum, things are supposed to be more about deeper things. But they are usually about politics and bullshit (all that lies that are a way to keep core fights and thoughts in the surface, and make people forget what they really are, never learn, never change, never show, you don't talk about yourself, about what do you want, about all that, you talk about "what is fair, what should the goverment do". your soul means a paper).

There is not a single philosophy forum in wich people talk using their head. (Oh, it's just a feeling, I know... XD irony everywhere)

And the main reasons are this:
Some people are regular people who have read books, not “deeper thinkers”, (wich is probably better in general, as I said, we have cores in order to not thinking all again all the time), and philosophy is usually for many people another mystical thing, like religion, so many poop posters go to philosophy forums.

We talk about cores, that’s sensitive, and that mean that there is going to be fight, and fight comes with chaos. Specially for those who don’t want to analyze their cores all the time.

Some people who go to philosophy forums, are people who usually think in not very common thoughts for the people, they look at the core more than the usual, so they get used to not being understood, and don’t give a try. Or they find that they are surrounded by people who think different things and fear comes because they deeply want to talk but they find no interest in the rest, also, they are not used to be able to talk about it, so they don't know how to do it very well.

That’s basically the reason for “TSBU”… that and… I have to like irony…

Ehm... sometimes people ask me to put "conclusions"... this are for me.

1. It's better to talk privatly, or one person at a time. It's better to develop a good comunication, learn about one person and treat that person in particular allows you to use that person's language and structures etc, there is not the common fear that leads people to worry all the time about attention and "who is better", etc.

2. Don't put many core thoughts in the garbage. They'll turn into garbage repeated by idiots, in noise, and then, you won't be able to use it well in comunication, cause all what people is going to think about, is the garbage, and the idiots. A good way to explain this would be "don't try to show what you really think that shouldn't be necesary to show".

3. Think in what you want, if you don't accomplish it, YOU are wrong. That means, if you are trying to show something to a person, and you can't, it's your fault (probably cause you should have tried). Of course, most of times we are not sure of the result of talking, but... if you are sure that it will be useless... well, if you have a feeling that leads you to "I need to say something", put a funy picture, or say just a couple of words: you have to have in mind the structure you are dealing with, including the feelings of the person. DONT FEED THE TROLL.

And... that's enough, I'll probably blame myself after posting this.
Last edited by TSBU on Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:44 pm

TSBU - Talk (-ing ) Should Be Useful.

Thanks for this, I 'get' some of it. However, there is too much there. I think it best to follow the KISS principle. I might try to address your conclusions later.

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TSBU
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby TSBU » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:11 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:TSBU - Talk (-ing ) Should Be Useful.

Thanks for this, I 'get' some of it. However, there is too much there. I think it best to follow the KISS principle. I might try to address your conclusions later.

KISS principle?

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 pm

TSBU wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:TSBU - Talk (-ing ) Should Be Useful.

Thanks for this, I 'get' some of it. However, there is too much there. I think it best to follow the KISS principle. I might try to address your conclusions later.

KISS principle?



My preferred version is Keep It Short and Simple. There are others you can google.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:34 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
TSBU wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:TSBU - Talk (-ing ) Should Be Useful.

Thanks for this, I 'get' some of it. However, there is too much there. I think it best to follow the KISS principle. I might try to address your conclusions later.

KISS principle?



My preferred version is Keep It Short and Simple. There are others you can google.

I remember I had a tutor for some course I was doing and she was always mentioning 'KISS'. But her version was 'keep it simple, stupid'. I found that offensive, and told her as much. She wasn't pleased, but she was an idiot anyway. :)

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:19 am

TSBU
OK, again thanks for your OP. It can't be easy writing philosophical thoughts in a second language. Difficult enough in mother tongue.

It is too long and complicated for me to properly digest, and I would appreciate a more condensed form before offering any feedback. The gain in communication should outweigh the pain, I think.

However, I have gained some idea of what you are attempting to convey. Here goes some thoughts:
Communication ( on a forum) to be useful or effective means:
1. expressing views clearly and with a certain confidence ( not always possible in the early exploratory stage of tentative thinking process)
2. being concise and succinct ( again, if we are exploring our own thoughts/views in tandem with others - as in philosophy forum - this might be possible as an end product but unlikely during a conversation). Trouble is when threads go round in circles and never have a clearing up. A summation - even if it means agreeing to disagree.
3. suit the audience. ( hmmm, perhaps there can be too much audience participation and unhelpful interjections - which can disturb the flow of a discussion )
4. promote free-flow of ideas ( often posters might shut down or leave if not given sufficient space or time before someone obstructs with negativity)

Why communicate?
To persuade or convince...if that is an aim, then any claims need to be supported with reasons or logic. ( not a link without any description of content). Also, when disagreeing there is something to be said for a bit of tact, rather than full on attack. But hey, characters will vary and that is the fun of the philo fair :)

Good communication: could be a 2-way conversation or more sharing experiences in a good atmosphere. Rick's pub.
Poor communication: includes people simply trying to score points off each other, denying the opinions/feelings of others. Being patronising.

For what it's worth - I feel that there are too many 'shoulds' floating about. Not enough questioning which might lead to a deeper understanding.
Sometimes, there is no follow-up to any replies - isn't that a bit demotivating ? I can be guilty of that too.
Usually, if there are no replies, I take it to mean there is agreement or indifference. People tend to reply only when stirred - when it touches a sensitive spot - or when they simply disagree...or feel in the mood :)
And that is OK...it is what it is...

Interesting.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:21 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:
TSBU wrote:KISS principle?



My preferred version is Keep It Short and Simple. There are others you can google.

I remember I had a tutor for some course I was doing and she was always mentioning 'KISS'. But her version was 'keep it simple, stupid'. I found that offensive, and told her as much. She wasn't pleased, but she was an idiot anyway. :)


:)
I only use that version of KISS on myself when I am trying too hard with too much information. Nuffink quite like a selfie :wink:

Dalek Prime
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby Dalek Prime » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:37 pm

Unfortunately, I find myself being patronizing when 'pontificating' on my fave philosophy, and ignoring others' opinions in the process. Having come to this realization, I'd rather shut up and keep it to myself, than do it anymore. At least until I can come to explain my beliefs without coming off as 'my way or the highway', and pay more attention to what others are saying.

I don't want to remain a philosophical pit bull, growling at others when they near my chew toy.

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TSBU
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby TSBU » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:Unfortunately, I find myself being patronizing when 'pontificating' on my fave philosophy, and ignoring others' opinions in the process. Having come to this realization, I'd rather shut up and keep it to myself, than do it anymore. At least until I can come to explain my beliefs without coming off as 'my way or the highway', and pay more attention to what others are saying.

I don't want to remain a philosophical pit bull, growling at others when they near my chew toy.


Now I'm curious :/

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:27 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:Unfortunately, I find myself being patronizing when 'pontificating' on my fave philosophy, and ignoring others' opinions in the process. Having come to this realization, I'd rather shut up and keep it to myself, than do it anymore. At least until I can come to explain my beliefs without coming off as 'my way or the highway', and pay more attention to what others are saying.

I don't want to remain a philosophical pit bull, growling at others when they near my chew toy.


Good general point about 'paying attention to what others are saying' - well, depending on who the others are...and what they are saying...
Careful listening and not jumping to conclusions based on prior assumptions about a poster, that's quite difficult.
Shutting up - or being silent for a while - that too is not easy when passionate about a philosophy that equates heavily with self and way of life.
It's when someone continually throws their bone into the ring, no matter what the topic, - that's what can become irritating. Especially if already sucked dry.
Hey, that could be another acronym: DRY.
Don't repeat yourself.

Then again...
Some things bear repeating.
Some things bear repeating.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:29 pm

TSBU wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Unfortunately, I find myself being patronizing when 'pontificating' on my fave philosophy, and ignoring others' opinions in the process. Having come to this realization, I'd rather shut up and keep it to myself, than do it anymore. At least until I can come to explain my beliefs without coming off as 'my way or the highway', and pay more attention to what others are saying.

I don't want to remain a philosophical pit bull, growling at others when they near my chew toy.


Now I'm curious :/


Cue Dalek Prime...
:)

Dalek Prime
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby Dalek Prime » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
TSBU wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Unfortunately, I find myself being patronizing when 'pontificating' on my fave philosophy, and ignoring others' opinions in the process. Having come to this realization, I'd rather shut up and keep it to myself, than do it anymore. At least until I can come to explain my beliefs without coming off as 'my way or the highway', and pay more attention to what others are saying.

I don't want to remain a philosophical pit bull, growling at others when they near my chew toy.


Now I'm curious :/


Cue Dalek Prime...
:)

No, I'm fine as it stands lol! :wink:

marjoram_blues
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby marjoram_blues » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:
TSBU wrote:
Now I'm curious :/


Cue Dalek Prime...
:)

No, I'm fine as it stands lol! :wink:


:lol:
We'll see...

Dalek Prime
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Re: Comunication and why my name.

Postby Dalek Prime » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:10 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:

Cue Dalek Prime...
:)

No, I'm fine as it stands lol! :wink:


:lol:
We'll see...

*Growl snarl woof!* :lol:

I'm trying hard lol!


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