Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Arising_uk wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:39 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:23 am You have to get pretty close to someone with either a stun gun or a taser, which is why cops ideally use when the perpetrator is fleeing, and not to disarm them of a weapon. ...
Er!? I'd have thought this would mean they were getting further away. Police tasers work up to 30 feet more than enough to tackle someone standing still with a knife.
I actually don't know that distance alone is why they opted against it in this particular instance, but I know it has been an issue in the past. I would have liked to have seen all non-lethal options exhausted first, however futile, though the 2-5 seconds it can take for a shot taser to reach full incapacitation makes that distance vital when it leaves the person in a potentially volatile state for those 2-5 seconds. It's typically protocol to mainly use it in the instance of a flee, when the perpetrators back is against the officer.

Though I see your concerns why the police would need to be willing to take a risk like this or reform their protocol, in terms of self-defense I think any civilian would have been justified in doing the same.
You have got to be joking!! Your country's police-force are out-of-control.
I don't disagree with you that our police force kill too many, but the reason why a taser or stun gun isn't used to disarm someone is a matter of electroshock weapons causing muscle contraction, and not muscle release. It would cause someone to grip harder onto whatever is in their hand, and not let go of it.
Arising_uk wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:39 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:and his openly-stated intention of wanting to die. ...
So police procedure is to assist suicides over there, handy for the terminally ill then.
I was using that as a reason they shouldn't have done what they did.
According to the young I talk to the idea is to do away with the idea of engendered roles altogether, they think this fracturing of identities is just a stage in the process although I disagree with them about this as I think it a retrograde step which will be hard to change.
Perhaps that's an incentive that a lot of them have, but people who choose to identify as "non-binary" has nothing to do with gender desegregation, it's that these people don't feel as though they are either male nor female.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:13 pm Those cops must have been terrified for their lives. I mean a depressed bunch of cells weilding a closed pocket knife (generally blunt as fuck). You can't even flick them open. By the time he opened it they could have had him back at the station house.
To be fair, I don't believe they knew it was closed.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:36 am It's clear that the kid was killed by homophobia. I have to admit that 20 years ago I thought homophobia would be a thing of the past by now. However, there has been a resurgence of homophobia on the wave of resurgent evangelist and fundamentalist religion. This dead kid is collateral damage in the political battle centred around current challenges to separation between church and state.

It would obviously be tragic for his friends and family, especially the unfairness, with this seemingly harmless and gormless young person dying in misery while those responsible for the homophobia that ultimately killed him carry on, oblivious to (or uncaring of) the tragedies they contributed towards.

It's been illustrative and disappointing to see societal regression occurring in my lifetime; it's very easy to presume a steady pressing onwards and upwards (even if nothing in nature ever works that way)
I do not think you can state that homophobia killed this person
I have to agree with your case of the decline in moral standards
When I was a kid it was still illegal for two men to have sex. Lesbianism was denied so much that the law did not even include women.
I think a big turning point was The Naked Civil Servant, and hats off to the makers of that drama, especially John Hurt. This was a point where society had a dialogue with the truth to accept that homosexuality was not a choice; was not a perversion and not 'ungodly'.
It's really in the last 20 years that things have taken a backwards turn with the rise of religious fundamentalism in the USA.
Last edited by Hobbes' Choice on Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greta
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Greta »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:25 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:15 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:37 amThis doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality, but okay.
Homophobia hurts both gays and transgenders, not to mention their families, partners, friends and associates.
I think it's a bit far-fetched to say homophobia is to blame because it offhandedly effects a group of people who can very loosely be fit into it, and not only the typical trans people, but people who broadly fall into a fringe of that group as well.
It MUST be a contributing factor. Consider how boys of that ilk fared when you were at school. When at school (a couple of years ago, give or take four decades) what I witnessed of the treatment of queer boys, it could only be described at persistent attempts at destruction. It was shocking and frightening to see, let alone be the victim. So, if one of those kids kills himself, being treated that way MUST be a contributing factor, and is frequently the main factor.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:03 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:25 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:15 am
Homophobia hurts both gays and transgenders, not to mention their families, partners, friends and associates.
I think it's a bit far-fetched to say homophobia is to blame because it offhandedly effects a group of people who can very loosely be fit into it, and not only the typical trans people, but people who broadly fall into a fringe of that group as well.
It MUST be a contributing factor. Consider how boys of that ilk fared when you were at school. When at school (a couple of years ago, give or take four decades) what I witnessed of the treatment of queer boys, it could only be described at persistent attempts at destruction. It was shocking and frightening to see, let alone be the victim. So, if one of those kids kills himself, being treated that way MUST be a contributing factor, and is frequently the main factor.
I was home-schooled, so I don't believe I could say from experience. But I don't doubt homophobia is still a big problem in school. Regardless, I don't think the issues people like him face in society can be so easily swept under the same label as "homophobia". I have known plenty of gay people who specifically don't like trans-gendered individuals, the "queer-gendered" ones even more so, and are flustered by a lot of the people who cluster them into the same group. In reality, the type of social problems trans people face and the ones that gay people face are very different, and sometimes they even perpetuate each other.

Maybe he was bullied when he was younger, and that contributed to much of his suicidal ill, but blaming it on "homophobia" makes about as much sense as blaming it on racism, and just discombobulates the actual discussion.
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Greta
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Greta »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:15 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:03 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:25 pm I think it's a bit far-fetched to say homophobia is to blame because it offhandedly effects a group of people who can very loosely be fit into it, and not only the typical trans people, but people who broadly fall into a fringe of that group as well.
It MUST be a contributing factor. Consider how boys of that ilk fared when you were at school. When at school (a couple of years ago, give or take four decades) what I witnessed of the treatment of queer boys, it could only be described at persistent attempts at destruction. It was shocking and frightening to see, let alone be the victim. So, if one of those kids kills himself, being treated that way MUST be a contributing factor, and is frequently the main factor.
I was home-schooled, so I don't believe I could say from experience. But I don't doubt homophobia is still a big problem in school. Regardless, I don't think the issues people like him face in society can be so easily swept under the same label as "homophobia". I have known plenty of gay people who specifically don't like trans-gendered individuals, the "queer-gendered" ones even more so, and are flustered by a lot of the people who cluster them into the same group. In reality, the type of social problems trans people face and the ones that gay people face are very different, and sometimes they even perpetuate each other.

I'm sure he was bullied when he was younger, and that contributed to much of his suicidal ill, but blaming it on "homophobia" makes about as much sense as blaming it on racism, and just discombobulates the actual discussion.
You have not had friends in tears talk to you about killing themselves due to homophobic bullying. Trust me, for queer kids, school homophobia is very often the main game for them - it can consume their entire world. I would bet a million bucks that homophobic bullying was a primary driver behind the kid's suicide.
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:19 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:15 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:03 pm

It MUST be a contributing factor. Consider how boys of that ilk fared when you were at school. When at school (a couple of years ago, give or take four decades) what I witnessed of the treatment of queer boys, it could only be described at persistent attempts at destruction. It was shocking and frightening to see, let alone be the victim. So, if one of those kids kills himself, being treated that way MUST be a contributing factor, and is frequently the main factor.
I was home-schooled, so I don't believe I could say from experience. But I don't doubt homophobia is still a big problem in school. Regardless, I don't think the issues people like him face in society can be so easily swept under the same label as "homophobia". I have known plenty of gay people who specifically don't like trans-gendered individuals, the "queer-gendered" ones even more so, and are flustered by a lot of the people who cluster them into the same group. In reality, the type of social problems trans people face and the ones that gay people face are very different, and sometimes they even perpetuate each other.

I'm sure he was bullied when he was younger, and that contributed to much of his suicidal ill, but blaming it on "homophobia" makes about as much sense as blaming it on racism, and just discombobulates the actual discussion.
You have not had friends in tears talk to you about killing themselves due to homophobic bullying. Trust me, for queer kids, school homophobia is very often the main game for them - it can consume their entire world. I would bet a million bucks that homophobic bullying was a primary driver behind the kid's suicide.
FFS. You seem to be getting confused. Aren't we being constantly bombarded with the 'gender has nothing to do with sexuality' line? I don't know what schools you went to. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a child, and neither was anyone else I was at school with. Why would a 'homosexual child' (if there's even any such thing) look or act any differently from any other child? If they dyed their hair pink and minced around talking in a whiny voice then it might have been different, but that's just media-driven bullshit.
Besides, phobic means 'fear'. Children who claimed to be the 'wrong gender' were nonexistent. They didn't even THINK about those things because they were just being children!
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Arising_uk »

tbieter wrote:"Suicide by cop" is a recognized pattern of behavior, as the above Wiki article discusses.

Why haven't any of you discussed this alleged cause and the implications therefrom?

From the above Wiki article:


"The idea of committing suicide in this manner is based on trained procedures of law enforcement officers, specifically the policy on the use of deadly force. In jurisdictions where officials are readily capable of deadly force (often by being equipped with firearms), there are usually set circumstances where they will predictably use deadly force against a threat to themselves or others. This form of suicide functions by exploiting this trained reaction. The most common scenario is pointing a firearm at a police officer or an innocent person, which would reasonably provoke an officer to fire on them in defense. However, many variants exist; for example, attacking with a knife or other hand weapon, trying to run an officer or other person over with a car, or trying to trigger a (real or presumed) explosive device.
This entire concept hinges on the person's state of mind, and their desire to end their own life" (Emphasis added)
Your country and police force are completely insane if you think this is 'training' for your officers.
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Impenitent »

the benefits of an armed populace are many

-Imp
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:32 pm the benefits of an armed populace are many

-Imp
True. It astronomically increases your chance of being shot dead, and that can't be a bad thing in the dear old US.
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Impenitent »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:34 pm
Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:32 pm the benefits of an armed populace are many

-Imp
True. It astronomically increases your chance of being shot dead, and that can't be a bad thing in the dear old US.
exactly, so come on down for a visit eh?

-Imp
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Arising_uk »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:I actually don't know that distance alone is why they opted against it in this particular instance, but I know it has been an issue in the past. I would have liked to have seen all non-lethal options exhausted first, however futile, though the 2-5 seconds it can take for a shot taser to reach full incapacitation makes that distance vital when it leaves the person in a potentially volatile state for those 2-5 seconds. ...
Are you taking the piss? Our police deal with knife-wielding citizens all the time and kill none of them. What is going on in your country?
It's typically protocol to mainly use it in the instance of a flee, when the perpetrators back is against the officer. ...
WTF!? Except that BoobTube is full of your police force tasering all and sundry for no reason whatsoever.
Though I see your concerns why the police would need to be willing to take a risk like this or reform their protocol, in terms of self-defense I think any civilian would have been justified in doing the same.
Eh!? But they are not civilians are they, they are supposed to be a trained police force with the aim of 'serve and protect' I thought? From over here they look like an out of control militia a la any third world nation.
I don't disagree with you that our police force kill too many, but the reason why a taser or stun gun isn't used to disarm someone is a matter of electroshock weapons causing muscle contraction, and not muscle release. It would cause someone to grip harder onto whatever is in their hand, and not let go of it.
It's a knife!!
Arising_uk wrote:I was using that as a reason they shouldn't have done what they did.
Fair enough. So what is going wrong with your system?
Perhaps that's an incentive that a lot of them have, but people who choose to identify as "non-binary" has nothing to do with gender desegregation, it's that these people don't feel as though they are either male nor female.
And the problem is?
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Greta
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Greta »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:28 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:19 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:15 pm I was home-schooled, so I don't believe I could say from experience. But I don't doubt homophobia is still a big problem in school. Regardless, I don't think the issues people like him face in society can be so easily swept under the same label as "homophobia". I have known plenty of gay people who specifically don't like trans-gendered individuals, the "queer-gendered" ones even more so, and are flustered by a lot of the people who cluster them into the same group. In reality, the type of social problems trans people face and the ones that gay people face are very different, and sometimes they even perpetuate each other.

I'm sure he was bullied when he was younger, and that contributed to much of his suicidal ill, but blaming it on "homophobia" makes about as much sense as blaming it on racism, and just discombobulates the actual discussion.
You have not had friends in tears talk to you about killing themselves due to homophobic bullying. Trust me, for queer kids, school homophobia is very often the main game for them - it can consume their entire world. I would bet a million bucks that homophobic bullying was a primary driver behind the kid's suicide.
FFS. You seem to be getting confused. Aren't we being constantly bombarded with the 'gender has nothing to do with sexuality' line? I don't know what schools you went to. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a child, and neither was anyone else I was at school with. Why would a 'homosexual child' (if there's even any such thing) look or act any differently from any other child? If they dyed their hair pink and minced around talking in a whiny voice then it might have been different, but that's just media-driven bullshit.
Besides, phobic means 'fear'. Children who claimed to be the 'wrong gender' were nonexistent. They didn't even THINK about those things because they were just being children!
I am not confused in the least. I am surprised that your school included no homophobic bullying. I worked in OH&S for a few years was an anti-bullying activist for ten years, speaking to hundreds of people about their situations, mostly being bullied at work but was also approached by many worried about school bullying.

Homophobic bullying has long been rife in schools and it should be noted that the suicide rates for young queer people are multiple times greater than that of their peers. While sexuality and gender are not the same, homophobic bullies do not differentiate.
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:51 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:28 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:19 pm
You have not had friends in tears talk to you about killing themselves due to homophobic bullying. Trust me, for queer kids, school homophobia is very often the main game for them - it can consume their entire world. I would bet a million bucks that homophobic bullying was a primary driver behind the kid's suicide.
FFS. You seem to be getting confused. Aren't we being constantly bombarded with the 'gender has nothing to do with sexuality' line? I don't know what schools you went to. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a child, and neither was anyone else I was at school with. Why would a 'homosexual child' (if there's even any such thing) look or act any differently from any other child? If they dyed their hair pink and minced around talking in a whiny voice then it might have been different, but that's just media-driven bullshit.
Besides, phobic means 'fear'. Children who claimed to be the 'wrong gender' were nonexistent. They didn't even THINK about those things because they were just being children!
I am not confused in the least. I am surprised that your school included no homophobic bullying. I worked in OH&S for a few years was an anti-bullying activist for ten years, speaking to hundreds of people about their situations, mostly being bullied at work but was also approached by many worried about school bullying.

Homophobic bullying has long been rife in schools and it should be noted that the suicide rates for young queer people are multiple times greater than that of their peers. While sexuality and gender are not the same, homophobic bullies do not differentiate.
How the fuck would anyone know they were 'queer'? Were there eight year old boys having sex in your playgrounds?
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Greta
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Greta »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:58 pm
Greta wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:51 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:28 pm

FFS. You seem to be getting confused. Aren't we being constantly bombarded with the 'gender has nothing to do with sexuality' line? I don't know what schools you went to. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a child, and neither was anyone else I was at school with. Why would a 'homosexual child' (if there's even any such thing) look or act any differently from any other child? If they dyed their hair pink and minced around talking in a whiny voice then it might have been different, but that's just media-driven bullshit.
Besides, phobic means 'fear'. Children who claimed to be the 'wrong gender' were nonexistent. They didn't even THINK about those things because they were just being children!
I am not confused in the least. I am surprised that your school included no homophobic bullying. I worked in OH&S for a few years was an anti-bullying activist for ten years, speaking to hundreds of people about their situations, mostly being bullied at work but was also approached by many worried about school bullying.

Homophobic bullying has long been rife in schools and it should be noted that the suicide rates for young queer people are multiple times greater than that of their peers. While sexuality and gender are not the same, homophobic bullies do not differentiate.
How the fuck would anyone know they were 'queer'? Were there eight year old boys having sex in your playgrounds?
Any boy who does not measure up to apparent masculine ideals will tend to have his sexuality questioned. Surely you know this?
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