Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm

There are plenty of good examples of an actual abuse of power occurring with cops in america, but they're unfortunately drowned out by many people clustering very questionable cases like Micheal Brown, with cases like Philando Castile - a man who I would probably agree with many of them, did not warrant such an action against him. Frankly, I think this is one of those more questionable cases people are trying to make a bigger deal out of based on prior situations they've already made their minds up about. Which does tend to skew and exaggerate their overall views of the subject.

People can only assess a situation with as much data as is present to them, and the fact that the knife was folded, or his prior mental condition was not present to the police involved. Perhaps them knowing this would have changed the sentiment and severity of the threat, but they didn't, and I don't think it's insane to expect someone to use self-defense after consecutive failed attempts to de-escalate a situation where a man with a knife approaches you, even granting there were non-lethal options on the table. I wouldn't expect such a level of hesitation from anyone. Had the cops instigated a man who was about to commit suicide without the element of the man threatening someone else, and they ended up killing him from there, I think my opinion would be different. Now that I've had time to think about it, I actually believe a pretty strong case of self-defense can be made, though I'm not talking about a legal one of course.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
That's because its people are collectively insane. I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven) religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship of a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.
There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
That's because its people are collectively insane. I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven), religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.
There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.
Obviously not enough of them to make any difference. Even the fairly intelligent ones have the collective insanity to varying degrees (hence comments by the likes of Bill Maher that he 'supports our troops' and pro-Vietnam war stance). How many non military-worshipping non-warmongers are there? They seem to be the most hated people in your country (and it hates so many).

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:...
People can only assess a situation with as much data as is present to them, and the fact that the knife was folded, or his prior mental condition was not present to the police involved. Perhaps them knowing this would have changed the sentiment and severity of the threat, but they didn't, and I don't think it's insane to expect someone to use self-defense after consecutive failed attempts to de-escalate a situation where a man with a knife approaches you, even granting there were non-lethal options on the table. ...
Er! It was folded so there was no knife apparent, what the hell kind of training are you giving your police force?
... I actually believe a pretty strong case of self-defense can be made, though I'm not talking about a legal one of course. ...
What!! There were two police-officers present and there was no sign of an assault, the policeman just shot him. Over here he'd be charged with manslaughter at a minimum and much more likely murder.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:57 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm
There are plenty of good examples of an actual abuse of power occurring with cops in america, but they're unfortunately drowned out by many people clustering very questionable cases like Micheal Brown, with cases like Philando Castile - a man who I would probably agree with many of them, did not warrant such an action against him. Frankly, I think this is one of those more questionable cases people are trying to make a bigger deal out of based on prior situations they've already made their minds up about. Which does tend to skew and exaggerate their overall views of the subject.

People can only assess a situation with as much data as is present to them, and the fact that the knife was folded, or his prior mental condition was not present to the police involved. Perhaps them knowing this would have changed the sentiment and severity of the threat, but they didn't, and I don't think it's insane to expect someone to use self-defense after consecutive failed attempts to de-escalate a situation where a man with a knife approaches you, even granting there were non-lethal options on the table. I wouldn't expect such a level of hesitation from anyone. Had the cops instigated a man who was about to commit suicide without the element of the man threatening someone else, and they ended up killing him from there, I think my opinion would be different. Now that I've had time to think about it, I actually believe a pretty strong case of self-defense can be made, though I'm not talking about a legal one of course.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
That's because its people are collectively insane. I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven) religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship of a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.
There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.
You are a pretty good example. You seem reasonably intelligent, yet you constantly try to rationalise and justify wars, and you seriously entertain the idea that two armed cops were acting in self defenCe against a boy with a pocket knife. I suppose those cops who shot the twelve year old boy in the stomach because he had a toy gun were 'acting in self defenCe' too. You should put a warning on your toy guns: 'Purchasing this toy carries the risk that your child will be murdered by cops if he plays with it'.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:38 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... You should put a warning on your toy guns: 'Purchasing this toy carries the risk that your child will be murdered by cops if he plays with it'.
Hmm... he was playing with an Airsoft pellet gun which had it's orange marker removed in a public place and was pointing it at the public you'd be hard pushed to tell it wasn't a real gun.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... l-to-real/

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:11 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:38 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... You should put a warning on your toy guns: 'Purchasing this toy carries the risk that your child will be murdered by cops if he plays with it'.
Hmm... he was playing with an Airsoft pellet gun which had it's orange marker removed in a public place and was pointing it at the public you'd be hard pushed to tell it wasn't a real gun.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... l-to-real/
They couldn't see that he was a child? Whether it looked 'real' or not shouldn't even come into it. You don't shoot children.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:13 am

T
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:...
People can only assess a situation with as much data as is present to them, and the fact that the knife was folded, or his prior mental condition was not present to the police involved. Perhaps them knowing this would have changed the sentiment and severity of the threat, but they didn't, and I don't think it's insane to expect someone to use self-defense after consecutive failed attempts to de-escalate a situation where a man with a knife approaches you, even granting there were non-lethal options on the table. ...
Er! It was folded so there was no knife apparent, what the hell kind of training are you giving your police force?
I don't know, I guess there were no concisely trained professionals of "telling if a couple inch butterfly knife is retracted at 11:00pm at night from dozens of feet away" out at that particular time, in that particular area. I'm just listening to what I heard from other sources, which all sounded as though the cops believed the knife was out and an imminent threat. Admittedly, I could be wrong about this, because now I can't find a source that specifically states they thought it was out. By everything I've seen reported, it sounds like they didn't

Another aspect of this, is that in the call he made to the police, he told them he had a gun. Of course there wasn't one, but that was his own threat and much of what they had to go on at the time.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/georgi ... index.html

Let me also correct what I said yesterday, because it turns out they actually were responding to a call, but a call that the perpetrator had made himself. The way that certain sites were phrasing it was confusing, and made it sound like the police were already on location. Nonetheless, I stand by my statements, and it doesn't matter all that much. They didn't make the best decision possible, though I don't currently believe they should be charged or stood up as a prime example of power abuse. I wouldn't expect an officer's right to defend himself forfeit in a reasonable perception of being threatened in a matter he or she didn't even initiate, because I wouldn't expect that of anyone. We can discuss how reasonable the police's perception of a legitimate threat was, but the threat was still pretty direct, and not even without the prospect of a gun, because he said he had one. I realize that threat turned out to be pretty cooked up, but I'm not sure it seemed that way with the data they had at their disposal.
What!! There were two police-officers present and there was no sign of an assault, the policeman just shot him.
What do you mean there was "no sign of an assault"? A sign of it isn't the 'actual act of it occurring'.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:21 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
That's because its people are collectively insane. I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven), religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.
There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.
Obviously not enough of them to make any difference. Even the fairly intelligent ones have the collective insanity to varying degrees (hence comments by the likes of Bill Maher that he 'supports our troops' and pro-Vietnam war stance). How many non military-worshipping non-warmongers are there? They seem to be the most hated people in your country (and it hates so many).
I don't really see what any of this has to do with war, other than bringing it up to make the very broadly-applicable point that everyone is wrong about something.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:57 pm
You are a pretty good example. You seem reasonably intelligent, yet you constantly try to rationalise and justify wars
I really don't. I like to play devil's advocate for the benefit of debate, and have made some counter-points to certain anti-war discussions, but generally, it doesn't mean I support those wars. I don't support the conflicts in the middle east, and I think the Vietnam war was a mistake. The only 'war' I would 'support' is hypothetically moving into North Korea and taking out its leadership, assuming no other country would have a problem with that, as I know you were well aware saying that.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:36 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:57 pm
you seriously entertain the idea that two armed cops were acting in self defenCe against a boy with a pocket knife. I suppose those cops who shot the twelve year old boy in the stomach because he had a toy gun were 'acting in self defenCe' too. You should put a warning on your toy guns: 'Purchasing this toy carries the risk that your child will be murdered by cops if he plays with it'.
I live in a part of the US where our self-defense laws have been highly contested. I think I'm only torn on this issue because I wouldn't want this applied this to anyone I care about. Killing someone else, with absolutely no criminal or ill intent behind it, and in fact, criminal intent on the perpetrator's part, but blaming the victims for something because there wasn't 'enough' of a legitimate criminal intent sounds wrong to me.

"I have a knife, and I'm going to use it to kill you' should be enough to invoke a justification of self-defense, in my opinion. We can delve into the pragmatic details of this situation, but I think it's far from the best example to use in an argument against America's police force.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:06 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:21 am
I really don't. I like to play devil's advocate for the benefit of debate, and have made some counter-points to certain anti-war discussions, but generally, it doesn't mean I support those wars. I don't support the conflicts in the middle east, and I think the Vietnam war was a mistake. The only 'war' I would 'support' is hypothetically moving into North Korea and taking out its leadership, assuming no other country would have a problem with that, as I know you were well aware saying that.
Yes, you really do. And what fucking right do you have to 'take out' Korea's leadership? How about we 'take out' yours?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:27 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:06 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:21 am
I really don't. I like to play devil's advocate for the benefit of debate, and have made some counter-points to certain anti-war discussions, but generally, it doesn't mean I support those wars. I don't support the conflicts in the middle east, and I think the Vietnam war was a mistake. The only 'war' I would 'support' is hypothetically moving into North Korea and taking out its leadership, assuming no other country would have a problem with that, as I know you were well aware saying that.
Yes, you really do. And what fucking right do you have to 'take out' Korea's leadership? How about we 'take out' yours?
What would give us the 'right'? How about the fact that NK openly wants to do it to us? I already tried to get you to see where I'm coming from, but you just don't even want to talk about it with me.

Anyway, I'm fine that you disagree with me on this one particular thing, but don't you think it's a bit much to write me off alongside the warmongering neo-cons like McCain and Bush because of it?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:37 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:27 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:06 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:21 am
I really don't. I like to play devil's advocate for the benefit of debate, and have made some counter-points to certain anti-war discussions, but generally, it doesn't mean I support those wars. I don't support the conflicts in the middle east, and I think the Vietnam war was a mistake. The only 'war' I would 'support' is hypothetically moving into North Korea and taking out its leadership, assuming no other country would have a problem with that, as I know you were well aware saying that.
Yes, you really do. And what fucking right do you have to 'take out' Korea's leadership? How about we 'take out' yours?
What would give us the 'right'? How about the fact that NK openly wants to do it to us? I already tried to get you to see where I'm coming from, but you just don't even want to talk about it with me.

Anyway, I'm fine that you disagree with me on this one particular thing, but don't you think it's a bit much to write me off alongside the warmongering neo-cons like McCain and Bush because of it?
I think you are a troll. Could anyone be that stupid? Sadly the answer is 'yes'. I would like to 'take out' your country. Why don't you just 'take out' everyone who wants to 'take out' your country? There would be practically no one left on the planet! And YOU are the one provoking North Korea! I'm sure you are safe and sound in your Texas basement. I doubt if Mr. Kim whatsit can do you much harm.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:28 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:37 am
I think you are a troll. Could anyone be that stupid? Sadly the answer is 'yes'. I would like to 'take out' your country. Why don't you just 'take out' everyone who wants to 'take out' your country? There would be practically no one left on the planet! And YOU are the one provoking North Korea! I'm sure you are safe and sound in your Texas basement. I doubt if Mr. Kim whatsit can do you much harm.
I'm a 'troll' who you apparently seem to agree with at least half the time. I'm a 'troll' because you ask me how we're justified in doing something, and I respond by pointing out they want to do the exact same thing. And stupid apparently, but also 'reasonably intelligible'. How is it this one single opinion I have drags down your respect for me so much? I'm not really interested in a repeat of last month's episode, but you're simplifying my position. It's not about how much harm Kim whatsit can do, but china potentially backing him.

I don't live in texas, but I guess you can just start guessing where I live like philX.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:32 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:They couldn't see that he was a child? Whether it looked 'real' or not shouldn't even come into it. You don't shoot children.
You won't hear me arguing that this was another case of an ill-trained armed police force but given that in America a child could easily be capable of killing you with a gun I think this a little simplistic. The reason why I pointed-out that Airsoft pellet guns are pretty much replicas of the real thing is that your use of the word 'toy' implies something looking a lot different and they really don't, it's why they are supposed to have an orange-tip on the end just because they are pretty much impossible to tell apart from a distance. Personally I question the parents sanity at letting a child roam about with effectively a replica gun, especially an illegal one as apparently the tip had been removed.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:03 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:32 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:They couldn't see that he was a child? Whether it looked 'real' or not shouldn't even come into it. You don't shoot children.
You won't hear me arguing that this was another case of an ill-trained armed police force but given that in America a child could easily be capable of killing you with a gun I think this a little simplistic. The reason why I pointed-out that Airsoft pellet guns are pretty much replicas of the real thing is that your use of the word 'toy' implies something looking a lot different and they really don't, it's why they are supposed to have an orange-tip on the end just because they are pretty much impossible to tell apart from a distance. Personally I question the parents sanity at letting a child roam about with effectively a replica gun, especially an illegal one as apparently the tip had been removed.
Children can't be expected to think like adults. The backward US is the only supposedly 'civilised' country that imprisons children. A child waving a toy gun around is only doing what it's intended for. What else is a toy gun for, realistic or not? Blame the manufacturer. Blame whoever gave it to him. Blame a country that worships guns. The child is only the victim of a long line of idiots and racist, murderous thug cops.

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