Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:31 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:49 am
You do have a habit of 'jusifying' the unjustifiable. Some people simply instinctively know when something is 'wrong'. It's called having empathy and a conscience. You can 'justify' anything if you really put your mind to it.
I don't think it's right to 'instinctively' judge a situation when part of that instinct has caused the person to explicitly ignore relevant information about the event, and when the group which has caused the event is one that he already has (partially incorrect) qualms with.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:33 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:31 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:49 am
You do have a habit of 'jusifying' the unjustifiable. Some people simply instinctively know when something is 'wrong'. It's called having empathy and a conscience. You can 'justify' anything if you really put your mind to it.
I don't think it's right to 'instinctively' judge a situation when part of that instinct has caused the person to explicitly ignore relevant information about the event, and when the group which has caused the event is one that he already has (partially incorrect) qualms with.
A decent person just knows. Psychopaths agonise over these things.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:04 pm

...Or you can ignore what I just said, and say the same thing over again. Apparently, we should just accept whatever media coverage we first come across, and not pay attention to the fine details of situation.

It's not really even about ignoring our judgement call, but making sure all the information is there to make the proper one.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:18 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:33 am
Well, the video doesn't include the fact that he was the one making the call to the police calling them to the scene for himself, or that he said he had a gun. Which, even if you don't think justifies what they did, should be relevant data to consider. I don't believe that the perpetrator necessarily "deserved to die", as I've implied repeatedly by saying this probably wasn't the most optimal solution.
What I've highlighted above is cold and indifferent, and definitely speaks of your psyche. If it were one of your loved ones, if you actually have any, I'm sure it'd change to OUTRAGOUS and EXCESSIVE FORCE! But then that would be different wouldn't it!!! Huh??? Yeah!!!

My point is that valuing life is a two-way street - for the police as well.They perceived a legitimate threat to their lives,
That doesn't 'appear' to be the case at all, instead it's obvious that they were itching to kill someone, or surely 'unreasonably' fearful for their lives, 'unreasonably'!! The kid was hesitant, unsure and shaky at best. He had no gun drawn, he made no sudden moves that could be misconstrued as drawing a gun. So shooting one that is not obviously armed, is the way of a coward and trigger happy cowards shouldn't be on the police force, they're not psychologically sound! Their fear outweighs their reasonable resolve. I would never have shot him. Instead the police force should have another unit specifically designed for these mentally handicapped cases, that come in behind the fire armed toting first responders, to either net, trank, or tase such confused people!

No life is worth miscalculation and should absolutely never be characterized as the lack of an 'optimal solution.' Unless of course one is sick and apathetic, themselves mentally disturbed, It's a life, not a video game with a reset button! :evil:



and acted in a way that protected their own lives.
They acted like scared rabbits frightened of a moth!

A threat that's perceived as legitimate is no different than an actual legitimate threat
Wrong, when the perception is more about their lack of mental equilibrium that it is sound reason.

within the present, because we're not omniscient human beings who can observe information we don't yet have.
They had all they needed with nothing but keen observation as to the kids movements, which said it all! But then maybe ignorant cops that are incapable of reading people shouldn't be hired on the force to begin with. Instead they should become garbage collectors.


I think your argument about the police force being corrupt
I never said that!
in the past is exactly the mentality I feared would come with such an event. People are more inclined to ignore these pragmatic details because they already have a bias against our police, so it fits into their preconceived notions. While I don't think that bias is completely unfounded, I do think it's become more of a cliche that people just say and believe without actually looking into themselves. I think many of the examples that have been used as staples for this view are simply just wrong to be used as such, and when the good examples are mixed in with bad or very questionable examples like 'the shooting of Micheal Brown', it heavily exaggerates the issue. This often causes them to jump the gun that the problem is an institutional one within 'police culture', and not higher up in the laws that are established. Or even considering other factors that may come into play. Of course, it also allows people on the other side like conservatives to poke holes into, and write off entirely.

The whole discussion about the subject just gets so discombobulated, and no one gets any closer to finding a solution.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:19 pm
And the war front thing was to address a truth that evil killers lurk everywhere, even in the police force or in a philosophy forum.
So your point is actually that I'm an 'evil killer', as this front was directly aimed towards me?
No my point was that killers lurk "everywhere," and one who defends killers of innocence are just as bad as those killers.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:31 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:04 pm
...Or you can ignore what I just said, and say the same thing over again. Apparently, we should just accept whatever media coverage we first come across, and not pay attention to the fine details of situation.

It's not really even about ignoring our judgement call, but making sure all the information is there to make the proper one.
SOB hit the nail on ther head when he said 'cold and indifferent'. There is definitely something missing here. Would you try to justify paedophiles and serial killers in the same way? Does everything have to be 'justified' or given equal consideration? You have two armed thugs on one side and a frail man/boy with a pocket knife on the other. How much f'ing more does anyone need to know???

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Adriana » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:18 pm

Don’t be so quick to judge yourself if you have made a mistake, an error or a blunder. Maybe you spilt coffee in the morning or said something utterly out of line. So what? Things happen.

Think to yourselves the reasons why that could have happened. Protect yourself from yourself. Don’t indulge in negative thoughts or negative thinking – instead think of excuses for yourself. Maybe the coffee in the morning was too hot.

Maybe you did say something out of line but it can be a wrong choice of words and everyone makes mistakes. Forgive yourself. Negative self talk can be really damaging.

https://haptips.com/get-rid-negative-se ... asy-steps/

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:00 pm

Adriana wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:18 pm
Don’t be so quick to judge yourself if you have made a mistake, an error or a blunder. Maybe you spilt coffee in the morning or said something utterly out of line. So what? Things happen.

Think to yourselves the reasons why that could have happened. Protect yourself from yourself. Don’t indulge in negative thoughts or negative thinking – instead think of excuses for yourself. Maybe the coffee in the morning was too hot.

Maybe you did say something out of line but it can be a wrong choice of words and everyone makes mistakes. Forgive yourself. Negative self talk can be really damaging.

https://haptips.com/get-rid-negative-se ... asy-steps/
Are you comparing murder to spilling coffee?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:29 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:18 am
What I've highlighted above is cold and indifferent, and definitely speaks of your psyche. If it were one of your loved ones, if you actually have any, I'm sure it'd change to OUTRAGOUS and EXCESSIVE FORCE! But then that would be different wouldn't it!!! Huh??? Yeah!!!
Well no, I can't necessarily guarantee that a personal bias wouldn't get in my way of judgement, assuming there would be a bias to get in my way of judgement. Although, I have a feeling you're going to take issue with me saying this, even though it's a fairly intuitive fact that we're all subject to bias, and it's nothing you should be surprised about. Luckily, in this particular situation, I'm not as transparently biased as you suggest I could be. I think this hypothetical character placement is actually what many people in this thread have been doing; They assume the kid in question is someone close to them, while not giving the same benefit to the police. If the campus cops were someone you cared about, I'm sure you would be far more hesitant to have them charged with manslaughter and much less, murder.

The reason why I'm saying it wasn't the most optimal solution is exactly because I'm trying to empathize with the person who was killed. I acknowledge that he probably shouldn't have died, but unfortunately I don't know that would have been a rational conclusion for the cops to have made with the available data and resources that they had on them. I do think what they had, was at least enough to grant the cops a right to defend themselves, and I honestly can't guarantee they would have been able to talk him out of it, even with what we know now.
That doesn't 'appear' to be the case at all, instead it's obvious that they were itching to kill someone
I'm a psychopath, the cops were all psychopath, everyone's just a psychopath in your world, apparently.
or surely 'unreasonably' fearful for their lives, 'unreasonably'!! The kid was hesitant, unsure and shaky at best. He had no gun drawn, he made no sudden moves that could be misconstrued as drawing a gun. So shooting one that is not obviously armed, is the way of a coward and trigger happy cowards shouldn't be on the police force, they're not psychologically sound! Their fear outweighs their reasonable resolve. I would never have shot him. Instead the police force should have another unit specifically designed for these mentally handicapped cases, that come in behind the fire armed toting first responders, to either net, trank, or tase such confused people!
I do agree that there are irrational fears, and it shouldn't be used as a scapegoat to keep someone from legal punishment, but I don't think this was one. I brought up the shooting of Philando Castile as an example for something like this, where I don't doubt the officer's fear, but I believe it was unfounded. And it's not just about the fear being unfounded, but Castile never threatened anyone. Maybe the officer had a false perception of one, but that's not the same thing as a false perception within an actual threat.

While he didn't escalate his threat by drawing a gun to prove that he had one, he did escalate the situation by continuing to approach them against their commands, with the full knowledge of him supposedly having a gun. I don't think your characteristic of him being so 'unsure' is necessarily correct.

While it may sound like a cool idea to be able to have a SWAT team of men move in on someone with a knife, and disarm them like solid snake, I'm not quite sure it's as good as it is on paper. I mean, we can certainly talk about implementing such a tailored system in the future to prevent the same thing from happening again, but that's not to say the campus police in this scenario had that solution. Ironically, it sounds like you're the one trying to come up with an optimal solution, but when I suggest there probably was a better solution, I'm apparently the psychopath. And I'm apparently also the psychopath since I'm defending the solution the cops chose, too much. Needless to say, I'm getting some mixed impressions, here.
No life is worth miscalculation and should absolutely never be characterized as the lack of an 'optimal solution.'themselves mentally disturbed, It's a life, not a video game with a reset button!
I don't think it was exactly a 'miscalculation', because I think they just didn't and couldn't have all the numbers. I think they made a rational choice based on the numbers they did have.

Apparently, it sounds like the officers lives are worth their 'miscalculation' to you.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:33 am
I think your argument about the police force being corrupt
I never said that!
I believe I mistook your sentiment as something else. I thought your statement the police as an organization is obviously flawed in their approach was a claim based on historical and prior examples of brutality, but having re-read it, I can see that wasn't really the case in the way I thought. Still, the rant was directed more-so to people reading in on the thread, and people letting these things cloud their judgement.
No my point was that killers lurk "everywhere," and one who defends killers of innocence are just as bad as those killers.
Besides the fact that clearly isn't true - those comments were still reared directly at me. You're just backpedaling, because you regret so blatantly trying to call me this psychopath who needs to be dropped in the middle of a war-zone to die, due to your abrupt, teenage-like angst.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:34 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:31 pm
SOB hit the nail on ther head when he said 'cold and indifferent'.
For someone who doesn't like the 'American PC', it's funny to see you borrow a tactic from their book. It can't just be that I simply disagree with you based on XYZ, but I have to be a bad person because of this disagreement as well. Hopefully, I can safely assume you don't take it quite as far as him, and think I need to be dropped off in a warzone.
Would you try to justify paedophiles and serial killers in the same way?
I wouldn't defend someone who we have already decided has done a repugnant thing, no.
You have two armed thugs on one side
I think this demonstrates what I mean about this bias I was mentioning to you.

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