~ If ~

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surreptitious57
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Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:39 am

I do not write as if I know the truth since I actually know nothing as I have already said before
The less I know then the more I have to learn for I want to learn as much as I can before I die

surreptitious57
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Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:48 am

I know that I am slowly letting go as I get older and I want to carry on letting go even more
So before I die I want to have let go as much as I can and then Death can take me any time

Dubious
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Re: ~ If ~

Post by Dubious » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:39 am
The less I know then the more I have to learn for I want to learn as much as I can before I die
What for? You won't need it post hoc. A good reason to learn as you get older is to keep your brains alive so it doesn't croak before you do.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:28 am

Knowledge acquisition is my goal in life so that is why I want to learn as much as I can
Of course it becomes entirely meaningless after I die but then so does everything else

Dontaskme
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Re: ~ If ~

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:49 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:28 am
Knowledge acquisition is my goal in life so that is why I want to learn as much as I can
Of course it becomes entirely meaningless after I die but then so does everything else
That's why the only thing worth keeping in life is acquiring ultimate mastership over the fickle potty mouth egoic mind by learning how to die before you die and then live out the rest of eternity shining.. :D :D

Image


:wink:

ken
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by ken » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:52 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:29 am
How can I truly detach from myself when I do not know how to and just want to be detached in my own way
How you can truly detach from the little self is by first NOT using words like myself instead of little self.

It is already obvious that you do NOT know how to do this, but just like understanding how to do any thing is by first learning how to do it. So, because you do not know how to truly detach from the little self, then you NEED to learn HOW to do it. But, sadly and very unfortunately for you, you have already expressed that you do NOT really want to truly detach from the little self BECAUSE you just want to be detached in your own way. Therefore, you will NEVER learn HOW to truly detach from the little self.

You will just continue doing what you do now, and thus will NOT acquire new knowledge, although you say that is your goal in life.


surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:29 am
And what would happen to me if I was able to truly detach from myself and not be a human being any more
Some thing that you will NEVER discover, from the way you are going now. But if you decided to change, for the better, then you may discover what would happen to you is what is feels like to be truly OPEN and able to find and see the actual truth of things, almost instantly. Plus a lot more than you could even imagine and dream of now. That would be a truly rewarding and fulfilling life, because you would KNOW how to live a truly loving, peaceful, and harmonious life and would be helping in creating this for ALL people also.
Last edited by ken on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:03 pm

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How can I truly detach from myself when I do not know how to and just want to be detached in my own way
It is already obvious that you do NOT know how to do this but just like understanding how to do any thing is by first learning how to do
it. So because you do not know how to truly detach from the little self then you NEED to learn HOW to do it. But sadly and very unfortunately
for you you have already expressed that you do NOT really want to truly detach from the little self BECAUSE you just want to be detached in
your own way. Therefore you will NEVER learn HOW to truly detach from the little self. You will just continue doing what you do now and thus
will NOT acquire new knowledge although you say that is your goal in life
I am aware of the distinction that you make between myself and little self as it is the total removal of ego. For I recognise it from Buddhism
which teaches that the root of all suffering is desire. That includes psychological as well as physical desire. My own is becoming less and less
as I feel myself become more detached the older I get. But whether I will ever become truly detached I really cannot say. Only time will tell

ken
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by ken » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:22 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:03 pm
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How can I truly detach from myself when I do not know how to and just want to be detached in my own way
It is already obvious that you do NOT know how to do this but just like understanding how to do any thing is by first learning how to do
it. So because you do not know how to truly detach from the little self then you NEED to learn HOW to do it. But sadly and very unfortunately
for you you have already expressed that you do NOT really want to truly detach from the little self BECAUSE you just want to be detached in
your own way. Therefore you will NEVER learn HOW to truly detach from the little self. You will just continue doing what you do now and thus
will NOT acquire new knowledge although you say that is your goal in life
I am aware of the distinction that you make between myself and little self as it is the total removal of ego.
But I have NEVER made a distinction between myself and little self at all. I am sure if I questioned you about what distinction I make, you would be somewhat not correct.

IN FACT, you asked, "How can I truly detach from myself ...?" and I said, "How you can truly detach from the little self is by first NOT using words like myself instead of little self." Even after I state how to truly detach is by FIRST NOT using words like 'myself', you still go on to use the word 'myself'.

You appear to purposely do the exact opposite of what I say. Whether you do this for annoyance or for some other reason only you know. Maybe you still have not caught on to and fully understood what I am trying to explain to you yet?

The reason I say do not use words like 'myself' is because the 'my' implies an owner, or another - in separation to some thing else. If you were to use the words My self or my Self, then it is obvious to see the separation or detachment but when the word myself is used, then there is no separation nor detachment at all. There is no obvious separation literally AND so there is no detachment in truth also. Myself and My self are obviously very different indeed. One way in for you to learn how to truly detach is by us looking at this in much greater detain, if you are interested?

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:03 pm
For I recognise it from Buddhism
which teaches that the root of all suffering is desire.
But buddhism, like any one else, or like any other religion, or like any one separate thing else, does NOT know the answers, like I do. Parts within ALL people people and religions are on the right path, but other parts are also so far off. Also, none of them have yet brought about what they all set out to achieve, which by the way is very close to being the exact same thing, that is peace in harmony, but contradictory some of them have partly caused the exact opposite of what they set out to do and achieve. Also, the labels and definitions that get used cause misinterpretation and confusion, which inevitably causes more confusion, disputes, fights, and wars.

Nothing, which includes no one, YET has even come close to an agreed upon unified explanation of HOW to even begin looking the right way to find, discover, see, and/or even understand, let alone actually finding, discovering, seeing and understanding ALL the right and meaningful answers, which WILL actually bring about peace in harmony. So, none of these separate ideas should be followed nor talked about solely BEFORE truth is discovered.

I being the very united collective of ALL things, and, also being the Mind's Eye, which is able to look at ALL things from a truly detached, and thus objective viewpoint, already KNOWS what IS the truth. This exact same I, which is inside of every one, is the one who should be listened to and followed, solely.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:03 pm
That includes psychological as well as physical desire. My own is becoming less and less
as I feel myself become more detached the older I get.
What do you feel the myself is actually more detached from exactly?

The 'my', which implies ownership, does not look at all detached from the 'self' here. And, if I was to question you in regards to who the 'my' is compared to who the 'self' is, and how exactly are they becoming more "detached", then how would you answer Me.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:03 pm
But whether I will ever become truly detached I really cannot say. Only time will tell
I can tell also, as the answer I can see is already very obvious.

Dontaskme
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ~ If ~

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:42 pm

It's obvious that what you are attempting to say using words as your only tool is impossible to do using that tool.
If it was possible everyone would instantly get and know what was being talked about, and there would be no more discussion ...the message would be crystal clear. However, it is crystal clear that it cannot be put into words, and any attempt to do so would be like a dog chasing it's own tail and never quite catching it.

I myself attempt to do this even though I know it is futile. One simply cannot teach another the Non-dual truth using words.




.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:46 am

ken wrote:
The reason I say do not use words like myself is because the my implies an owner or another - in separation to some thing else. If you were to use the words My self or my Self then it is obvious to see the separation or detachment but when the word myself is used then there is no separation nor detachment at all. There is no obvious separation literally AND so there is no detachment in truth also. Myself and My self are obviously very different indeed. One way in for you to learn how to truly detach is by us looking at this in much greater detail if you are interested
Can you explain this in greater detail and especially in relation to the origin of Mind so is Mind a human idea or is it something else
I like the idea of complete detachment by using my Self or My self instead of myself but as I am too detached I can never use them
The best that I can do is listen to ken even if I do not agree or disagree with anything he says though that alone is not good enough

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:58 am

Dontaskme wrote:
One simply cannot teach another the Non dual truth using words
One can teach non duality to someone who is completely open to the idea but not to anyone who does not understand it or does
not want to understand it and so the problem is not one pertaining to the limitation of language but to not having an open mind

Dontaskme
Posts: 3034
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ~ If ~

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:58 am
Dontaskme wrote:
One simply cannot teach another the Non dual truth using words
One can teach non duality to someone who is completely open to the idea but not to anyone who does not understand it or does
not want to understand it and so the problem is not one pertaining to the limitation of language but to not having an open mind
I agree.

It can't be put into words in it's entirety though. Only in fragments of understanding, discernment is the key toward understanding what's being pointed to using the only tool available which are words and their obvious limitation.

But we do try and do our best for the good of the whole.

What I despise is when the teacher puts the student down and makes it feel small.

.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:36 am

Dontaskme wrote:
It cannot be put into words in its entirety though. Only in fragments of understanding discernment is the key toward
understanding what is being pointed to using the only tool available which are words and their obvious limitation
I do not think that understanding requires language other than when one is communicating an idea or thought to
someone else because if one can understand something all by themselves then language is not actually necessary

Dontaskme
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ~ If ~

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:49 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:36 am
Dontaskme wrote:
It cannot be put into words in its entirety though. Only in fragments of understanding discernment is the key toward
understanding what is being pointed to using the only tool available which are words and their obvious limitation
I do not think that understanding requires language other than when one is communicating an idea or thought to
someone else because if one can understand something all by themselves then language is not actually necessary
That is so true.

ken
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: ~ If ~

Post by ken » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:08 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:42 pm
It's obvious that what you are attempting to say using words as your only tool is impossible to do using that tool.
If it was possible everyone would instantly get and know what was being talked about, and there would be no more discussion ...the message would be crystal clear. However, it is crystal clear that it cannot be put into words, and any attempt to do so would be like a dog chasing it's own tail and never quite catching it.

I myself attempt to do this even though I know it is futile. One simply cannot teach another the Non-dual truth using words.




.
To make it crystal clear I KNOW that what I want and will express IS possible. The difference between (the) you and (the) I is I KNOW what I can do and achieve, whereas, you believe it is impossible, although you keep trying. You believe using words to express and explain a relatively new idea is impossible. I, on the other hand, KNOW expressing that, what you are attempting to express, succinctly is very possible. That is why you will continue on talking the way you do, even when you full well know it is futile to do so, and I will just keep on learning how to express better. I am NOT here to express any thing in particular but rather to learn HOW to express better.

I already KNOW what dontaskme is talking about, and what the message is that you are trying to get across. What you are saying is very simple and easy to understand. But I also KNOW and agree that by using current language, in its current form, it is near impossible to express and explain what we are both trying to express and explain. But how long did it take to explain that the earth revolves the sun and have that fully understood? When people are under the illusion that what they already believe is true, then just finding the right words to override those beliefs is needed. It does not matter how long it takes, I KNOW it will happen.

The main difference between you and I is I am just here to learn what needs to be changed in order to learn how to express far more succinctly or better the idea of HOW you, any person, can discover, find, see, and understand by them self that what you are trying to explain is the true, whereas, you are just here to keep expressing the way you have been what is the truth. There is nothing wrong with us trying different ways to get to the the same point, but I would never look at this from a negative viewpoint and say that it is impossible and futile. I just look at this as just another challenge, which needs new ways of overcoming it. For example dontaskme sometimes says, "'you' are the pure and eternal One" but as I have attempted to explain before the word 'you' signifies another, and therefore (the) 'you' can NOT be the unified pure and eternal One, which we talk about. But as I say there is an 'I' in ALL of us, which is that unified pure and eternal One. We just have to detach the 'you', (which ken is also one of those individual human people) from the 'I', which is the ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, et cetera, et cetera, dwelling inside.

If we use the word 'you' to refer to the personal and individual ones, and the 'I' to refer to the one and only One, then as far as I can see that makes it easier to explain. Now to add this onto the countless other subliminal messages in words and languages, and expressing how the answers and the truth can be seen in all of them better and far more succinctly, just takes some time. But this is understandable because of how the Mind and the brain works, and thus how human beings view things and what they also see as being true, now. It took quite some years to explain that the earth revolves around the sun, and that was with easily seen physical evidence and proof. To explain what we are trying to explain dontaskme, without the benefit of easy to see with the physical eyes things as proof, and considering it is of far greater difference than what is currently taught, compared when trying to teach something different than the earth is at the center of everything teaching was, then it is not necessarily an easy task, BUT it is certainly a possible task, and a challenge that I thrive on. Because of the huge benefit to human kind and the benefit this will then be for ALL things, in the "world", then I KNOW we can and will do it. Because this does NOT come from one individual human being but from that One, which is Everyone.

The basis of what you are saying is already right and obviously true, but because you have already stated that you do NOT want help to express what you are attempting to say, you will NOT change what you say and/or write, and you do NOT want to work with others to achieve what it is that you want to express, then I can NOT help you. Because you want to do it all on your own I can NOT help you to see that what I want to say is actually possible and easy. Although you have already subliminally proved this it is possible to do what you say is impossible. Your own first sentence states it is obvious that what I am attempting to say using words as my only tool is impossible. BUT if what I am attempting to say, using words as My only tool, is already obvious to you, then I have already achieved it. Therefore, it IS possible.

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