Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

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bobevenson
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Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:39 pm

Memo to Philosopher Explorer: I don't think Walter Williams would consider me a traitor for planning a possible secession of a State the AEP takes over.

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Walter Williams
By Walter Williams
Published June 28, 2017


Were Confederate Generals Traitors?

My "Rewriting American History" column of a fortnight ago, about the dismantling of Confederate monuments, generated considerable mail.

Some argued there should not be statues honoring traitors such as Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis, who fought against the Union. Victors of wars get to write the history, and the history they write often does not reflect the facts.

Let's look at some of the facts and ask: Did the South have a right to secede from the Union? If it did, we can't label Confederate generals as traitors.

Article 1 of the Treaty of Paris (1783), which ended the war between the Colonies and Great Britain, held "New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States."

Representatives of these states came together in Philadelphia in 1787 to write a constitution and form a union.

During the ratification debates, Virginia's delegates said, "The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression." The ratification documents of New York and Rhode Island expressed similar sentiments.
At the Constitutional Convention, a proposal was made to allow the federal government to suppress a seceding state. James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution," rejected it.

The minutes from the debate paraphrased his opinion: "A union of the states containing such an ingredient (would) provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a state would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound."

America's first secessionist movement started in New England after the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.

Many were infuriated by what they saw as an unconstitutional act by President Thomas Jefferson. The movement was led by Timothy Pickering of Massachusetts, George Washington's secretary of war and secretary of state.

He later became a congressman and senator.

"The principles of our Revolution point to the remedy — a separation," Pickering wrote to George Cabot in 1803, for "the people of the East cannot reconcile their habits, views, and interests with those of the South and West."

His Senate colleague James Hillhouse of Connecticut agreed, saying, "The Eastern states must and will dissolve the union and form a separate government." This call for secession was shared by other prominent Americans, such as John Quincy Adams, Elbridge Gerry, Fisher Ames, Josiah Quincy III and Joseph Story.

The call failed to garner support at the 1814-15 Hartford Convention.

The U.S. Constitution would have never been ratified — and a union never created — if the people of those 13 "free sovereign and Independent States" did not believe that they had the right to secede. Even on the eve of the War of 1861, unionist politicians saw secession as a right that states had. Rep. Jacob M. Kunkel of Maryland said, "Any attempt to preserve the union between the states of this Confederacy by force would be impractical and destructive of republican liberty." The Northern Democratic and Republican parties favored allowing the South to secede in peace.

Northern newspapers editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New-York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." The Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful, could produce nothing but evil — evil unmitigated in character and appalling in extent." The New-York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is a growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go."

Confederate generals were fighting for independence from the Union just as George Washington and other generals fought for independence from Great Britain. Those who'd label Gen. Robert E. Lee as a traitor might also label George Washington as a traitor. I'm sure Great Britain's King George III would have agreed.


Dr. Walter Williams is an American economist, commentator, and academic. He is the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics at George Mason University, as well as a syndicated columnist and author known for his libertarian views.

Walker
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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Walker » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:02 pm

Robert E. Lee was the best of the best, but he made a critical error in his heavy decision. He forgot that behind the states right’s issues, and behind the issues of commerce, the measure of existence and all, is life and specifically, in his time the lives of human slaves. Lincoln saw the big picture.

Lee's error doesn’t make him a traitor.
It simply means that great as he was, his vision was narrower and limited to the known of the past which caused a mis-calibration in assessing reality.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:56 pm

Of course, King George could have said the same about Gen. George Washington if we had lost the Revolutionary War.

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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:00 pm

I would suggest, Walker, that what you have written is a pure ideological statement. It appears to you to be completely free of ideology, and as close to 'truth' as falling rain, and yet it is highly ideological, and the ideological in it will determine how you view --- how you do view --- this destructive war.

I also suggest, because a) I think it necessary and b) because I believe it possible to do it, that going inside the ideological construct and dismantling it will lead to radical reassessments of 'the present' and thus the ideological structures which seem to dominate perception.

For Americans, a great deal of this hinges on and on the views of The War Between the States.

Walker
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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Walker » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:01 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:56 pm
Of course, King George could have said the same about Gen. George Washington if we had lost the Revolutionary War.
That's an impossibility, for obvious reasons.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Walker » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm

Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:00 pm
I would suggest, Walker, that what you have written is a pure ideological statement. It appears to you to be completely free of ideology, and as close to 'truth' as falling rain, and yet it is highly ideological, and the ideological in it will determine how you view --- how you do view --- this destructive war.

I also suggest, because a) I think it necessary and b) because I believe it possible to do it, that going inside the ideological construct and dismantling it will lead to radical reassessments of 'the present' and thus the ideological structures which seem to dominate perception.

For Americans, a great deal of this hinges on and on the views of The War Between the States.
Robert E. Lee was the top of his class at West Point, with 0 demerits. He was the best of the best. He made his mark in the Mexican war as a young man with astonishing feats of bravery and ingenuity. He agonized over his decision. He put it all on the line. He was a great man.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Impenitent » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:50 pm

Conotocaurious (Town Destroyer) could never be a traitor

-Imp

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:06 pm

This is my response to Bob:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... ion-legal/

Btw traitorous Bob, you never mentioned which state nor territory you propose to have seceding from "the Union." So it took you over a week to come up with this garbage thread. You don't even offer any reasons why you want to tear the Union apart and this makes you worse than Trump. So I say you can take your AEP and go stuff it because it will not be accepted by the US.

PhilX

PS Walter Williams is an economist, NOT a historian nor a legal expert.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:50 pm

Who the hell uses such an archaic term these days anyway? It's more something to be admired than derided. And what does it even mean? That you can't stand whichever bunch of self-serving, lying wankers happen to be in power at any given time?

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:07 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:06 pm
This is my response to Bob:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... ion-legal/

Btw traitorous Bob, you never mentioned which state nor territory you propose to have seceding from "the Union." So it took you over a week to come up with this garbage thread. You don't even offer any reasons why you want to tear the Union apart and this makes you worse than Trump. So I say you can take your AEP and go stuff it because it will not be accepted by the US.

PhilX

PS Walter Williams is an economist, NOT a historian nor a legal expert.
You seem to have a short memory, as I stated earlier that my modus operandi of using the Champagne Sherry Principle is subsequent to a university study selecting the best city in the best county of the best state to establish AEP headquarters and begin political operations. Also, the AEP would give the federal government sufficient time to make reasonable progress toward a proper government envisioned by the AEP. By the way, I believe Walter Williams is a far better historian than you.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:59 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:07 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:06 pm
This is my response to Bob:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... ion-legal/

Btw traitorous Bob, you never mentioned which state nor territory you propose to have seceding from "the Union." So it took you over a week to come up with this garbage thread. You don't even offer any reasons why you want to tear the Union apart and this makes you worse than Trump. So I say you can take your AEP and go stuff it because it will not be accepted by the US.

PhilX

PS Walter Williams is an economist, NOT a historian nor a legal expert.
You seem to have a short memory, as I stated earlier that my modus operandi of using the Champagne Sherry Principle is subsequent to a university study selecting the best city in the best county of the best state to establish AEP headquarters and begin political operations. Also, the AEP would give the federal government sufficient time to make reasonable progress toward a proper government envisioned by the AEP. By the way, I believe Walter Williams is a far better historian than you.
When did this study start?

PhilX

bobevenson
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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:38 pm

As you know, the study hasn't started yet, but it will be fairly expensive, requiring the services of a staff economist, political scientist, sociologist, social psychologist and statistician.
Last edited by bobevenson on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:41 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:38 pm
When did what study start? What the hell are you talking about?
The university study dum-dum. Can't you read?

PhilX

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:51 pm

Please, you should certainly know by now that the study hasn't started yet, but I did edit my reply as shown above.

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Re: Is Bob Evenson an American Traitor?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:51 pm
Please, you should certainly know by now that the study hasn't started yet, but I did edit my reply as shown above.
Just like your 'party'.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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