What would be important for you to do before dying ?

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marjoram_blues
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am

ken wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 am
marjoram_blues wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:54 pm
ken wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:21 pm
Learning how to be understood is important for me before this body stops breathing.
And how to find peace if misunderstood?
Your post reminded me of the Prayer of St. Francis.

Basically, the focus shifts: To understand v to be understood.
To actively bring peace; love; hope; consolation...compared to hate; despair; sadness.

So, it takes at least two. Someone who wants to be understood, needs the understanding of another.

And how do we reach understanding...by experience and careful listening. And ability to communicate clearly and honestly.
Not so hard you would think...
Only a lifetime's work...and even then...
One worry is finding the right words, especially to the dying. Some understand without words. Sometimes a hug is enough. Some don't want to be touched. It is knowing the person and relating - so as to maximise peace/healing - minimise hurt and harm.
We can only do our best.

What is it you want people to understand?
That, as an adult, you are totally responsible for how you behave and misbehave, and if you are truly honest and open about the wrong behavior along with seriously willing to change, for the better, then you will be enlightened to those answers you are seeking as well as obtain that what you started out truly wanting in life.
So, I had a look at your Introduction. From that, it seems clear that you have a message for others in how to live in peace and harmony. You found a 'formula' after seeking help to become a better person. 'Just by truly listening and by truly answering honestly and fully those meaningful questions of life just start coming to light'...you 'began to discover how mind and brain works'. Leading to 'How to gain full understanding and thus forgiveness'. So, some kind of enlightenment as to who you are and what it is all about. You suggest that if we are open ( not believing or disbelieving in anything) > true intelligence > learn more, 'including how easy it really is for all of us to live in peace and harmony'.

You claim to see and understand why every person is the way they are and why they do the things they do. You state you enjoy the challenge of 'learning how to show [us] how to live in peace and harmony. The hardest thing is to show 'that what is right when others do not and will not believe'.

So far, so good?
And now - before your body stops breathing, the important thing to do is 'learning how to be understood'.
The aim for all of us to live in peace and harmony, after being enlightened.

Do you consider your current life to be peaceful and harmonious?
I doubt it. Given the diversity of people, thoughts, problems in the world - I doubt there will ever be a time when all of us will live in peace and harmony. And that is a good thing.
Who wants peace in the world, if it is dependent on us having some kind of static agreement or understanding, based on...
what exactly ?
A singular kind of enlightenment formula ?
I doubt your claim that you 'can see and understand why every person is the way they are and why they do the things they do'.

But please do carry on enjoying the challenge of persuasion. Because that is what I think this is - not so much a concern of 'learning how to be understood'. It is in people's rejection of your particular 'understanding' which comes over as being morally superior. How do you know you are 'better' than the person you were before...how do you know 'what is right'.
Would you want everyone to believe as you do - is it important before people die for them to have 'understood' your message?

marjoram_blues
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:07 am

Dubious wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:35 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:03 am
Dubious wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:42 pm
...thinking about it for as long as I can before dying.
'it' ?
Just a smart alec remark of mine; Harbal does it better!
Oh, how very disappointing of you. I had thought 'it' to be either about sex or death. Or simply being able to experience the dying moments with full mental capacity...
Never mind, eh :wink:

marjoram_blues
Posts: 1630
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:17 am

Skip wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:22 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:01 am
I'm kinda disappointed we all can't go blazing into a supernatural, rose-tinted sunset together...
Wouldn't it be lovely to plan the exact moment of leaving this world, having squeezed every last drop of juice out of it.
There's a bozo in a big white house, eastern edge of the US, might be arranging that for all of us.
These days to have your own house is wonderful - but if you get so that you need end-of-life-care, sometimes ( depending on criteria ) it needs to be sold. Most aren't happy about that...
Our best friend - in fact the only friend we still have in the area - is 85 and has decided to put her house on the market. We knew it was coming: she has macular degeneration in both eyes and won't be able to drive much longer. We've been talking about an apartment in our nearest small city, which is affordable, senior-friendly and has a pretty good hospital. She told us last week that she's looking at a seniors' complex in London. Moving close to her youngest daughter and grandchild, to an attractive city with our best regional health-care facilities and more public amenities makes sense. The place they're considering has a section of independent apartments and a section with full care, its own shuttle bus, cafeteria and organized activities.
Wal, yeah, we get it.... but it's a 2 1/2 hour drive!

Her house was custom built in 1995 (same year we moved in across the road) It's a terrific 3-bedroom bungalow, with outbuildings, full finished basement, double garage, patio, ramp and hot tub, on top of a hill, on 50 acres of hardwood and meadow, on a well-maintained highway. Interested?
Wow - that will be a major change for your friend. I've been listening to stories of elderly single women and men downsizing and buying retirement apartments in a communal setting. One, in particular, sounds crazy to me. Spending about a quarter of a million pounds, plus an annual maintenance fee ( increases yearly ) - for what...the joys of having to wash your clothes in a communal laundry. No thank you.
The property market, over here, seems not to have got its act together on so many fronts...

ken
Posts: 2032
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by ken » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:31 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
ken wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 am
marjoram_blues wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:54 pm


And how to find peace if misunderstood?
Your post reminded me of the Prayer of St. Francis.

Basically, the focus shifts: To understand v to be understood.
To actively bring peace; love; hope; consolation...compared to hate; despair; sadness.

So, it takes at least two. Someone who wants to be understood, needs the understanding of another.

And how do we reach understanding...by experience and careful listening. And ability to communicate clearly and honestly.
Not so hard you would think...
Only a lifetime's work...and even then...
One worry is finding the right words, especially to the dying. Some understand without words. Sometimes a hug is enough. Some don't want to be touched. It is knowing the person and relating - so as to maximise peace/healing - minimise hurt and harm.
We can only do our best.

What is it you want people to understand?
That, as an adult, you are totally responsible for how you behave and misbehave, and if you are truly honest and open about the wrong behavior along with seriously willing to change, for the better, then you will be enlightened to those answers you are seeking as well as obtain that what you started out truly wanting in life.
So, I had a look at your Introduction. From that, it seems clear that you have a message for others in how to live in peace and harmony. You found a 'formula' after seeking help to become a better person. 'Just by truly listening and by truly answering honestly and fully those meaningful questions of life just start coming to light'...you 'began to discover how mind and brain works'. Leading to 'How to gain full understanding and thus forgiveness'. So, some kind of enlightenment as to who you are and what it is all about. You suggest that if we are open ( not believing or disbelieving in anything) > true intelligence > learn more, 'including how easy it really is for all of us to live in peace and harmony'.

You claim to see and understand why every person is the way they are and why they do the things they do. You state you enjoy the challenge of 'learning how to show [us] how to live in peace and harmony. The hardest thing is to show 'that what is right when others do not and will not believe'.

So far, so good?
All pretty good indeed, that us until the very last sentence. I certainly do not have any thing to believe, nor to believe in. If I wrote the last part of the last sentence, then I should have added "that it could even be true."

And now - before your body stops breathing, the important thing to do is 'learning how to be understood'.
The aim for all of us to live in peace and harmony, after being enlightened.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
Do you consider your current life to be peaceful and harmonious?
To a certain extent yes.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
I doubt it.
So was I wrong in thinking that you were asking Me for clarification about Me?
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
Given the diversity of people, thoughts, problems in the world - I doubt there will ever be a time when all of us will live in peace and harmony.
Do you have 'doubt' from the context of that it might be possible for all of us to live in peace and harmony, or from the context that it will be impossible for all of us to live in peace and harmony?

Your answer will influence whether or not it is worth to carry on with this discussion.

If and when you KNOW WHY there IS such diversity of such things, then you will be able to see just how easy peace and harmony CAN come about.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
And that is a good thing.
Who wants peace in the world, if it is dependent on us having some kind of static agreement or understanding,
Who ever or when ever was it ever stated that peace is dependent upon static agreement or static understanding? Sounds like some one is making assumptions based on previous experiences.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
based on...
what exactly ?
I am not sure what this question is in reference to exactly.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
A singular kind of enlightenment formula ?
I am not sure what a 'singular kind of enlightenment formula' refers to exactly. Enlightenment is enlightenment is it not?
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
I doubt your claim that you 'can see and understand why every person is the way they are and why they do the things they do'.
Thanks for informing us of that. There does not seem to be any sort of curiosity here. If there was, then some sort of challenging question would have been posed.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
But please do carry on enjoying the challenge of persuasion.
But I am NOT trying to persuade any thing at all. The reason you are making these wrong assumptions is obvious. Making assumptions can cause complete confusion, which can create a much worse "world", and I want a much better "world" for My children. This is why it is important to me to be understood before this body stops breathing.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
Because that is what I think this is - not so much a concern of 'learning how to be understood'. It is in people's rejection of your particular 'understanding' which comes over as being morally superior.
But no person who has heard My particular understanding has rejected it, yet. And, no person on this forum has shown any interest in hearing it anyway.

And, if I am coming across as being morally superior, then that shows just how much more learning I need in order to express better. I am certainly not morally superior to any one else.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
How do you know you are 'better' than the person you were before...how do you know 'what is right'.
Because I know who and what decides on that.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
Would you want everyone to believe as you do
But I do NOT want anyone to believe (in) any thing, let alone everyone to believe (in) any thing. How many times do I have to repeat before people understand what I am actually saying? I thought I had made it quite clear that the opposite of believing is what I found to be far more beneficial for learning and gaining understanding. Openness instead of believing is what I want understood if people really want to become wise.
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:04 am
- is it important before people die for them to have 'understood' your message?
Not at all. What I want to convey is for children and ALL their children, and so on. What I want to be understood is for the benefit of ALL people for ALL time. My message is for future peoples. I am not here to convince nor persuade any one of any thing. Either what I propose shows how a truly peaceful world is possible or it does not. The quicker people stop believing, start to open up and become more curious, then the quicker peace in harmony could come to fruition. If it takes centuries to come about, then so be it. So, in order to make the best life for My children thus is only important for Me before this body stops breathing. What is important for people before they "die" is up to them solely.

Science Fan
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by Science Fan » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:47 pm

Making sure my life-insurance policy was current.

Dubious
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by Dubious » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:06 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:07 am
Or simply being able to experience the dying moments with full mental capacity...
Well! that would be the ULTIMATE IRONY finally receiving in my last moments what I always asked for but never got. I wonder if it would be too late to take advantage of Pascal's Wager in those closing moments having, you know, finally seen the light!! :

As for death and sex why not combine the two and give live a big symphonic crescendo of death by sex! :twisted:
Last edited by Dubious on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marjoram_blues
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:14 pm

Dubious wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:06 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:07 am
Or simply being able to experience the dying moments with full mental capacity...
Well! that would be the ULTIMATE IRONY finally receiving in my last moments what I always asked for but never got. I wonder if it would be too late to take advantage of Pascal's Wager in those closing moments having, you know, finally seen the light!! :twisted:
:lol:
God, thanks for that. I needed a laugh, badly 8)

Ooh, I missed your edit. Are you sure you're not Harbal :wink:
Last edited by marjoram_blues on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marjoram_blues
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:26 pm

@ Ken - the trouble my spontaneous open-minded curiously gets me into :roll:
You are quite correct. You were wrong in thinking I was asking someone called 'Me' for clarification about that person called 'Me'.
And I can confirm that any further discussion would probably be a big waste of time and effort.
Life's too short.

David Swift
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by David Swift » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:29 am

duszek asked,

But how about Husserl ?
I once started reading a Routledge Philosophy guidebook to Husserl and I did not finish it.
Should I buy it and read it while I am still alive and without demetia ?
Would it promote my views on life substantially ?

Found a copy of William Barrett's Irrational Man on a remainder table. It was assigned undergrad reading back in the day. I carried it for about two years but never cracked the cover. I read it a couple of weeks ago and I'm re-reading it now. Barrett says that Husserl walked through the door Kant left opened in his Critique of Pure Reason. He also says that Husserl's phenomenology divided the Essentialism of Plato, Descartes etc. from the Existentialism of Heidigger and Sartre. Well worth the read. Don't know if it would promote your views on life, but it offers new perspectives on perception and consciousness. Barrett inspired me to order Being and Time and Being and Nothingness along with some essays by Heidigger on concepts of truth. They arrived today, and they're tomes. Don't know if I'll finish them before I die. I'm pretty old, but still game for a good idea.

By the way, any particular reason that Existentialism isn't a category in this form?

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Arising_uk
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:45 am

David Swift wrote:... Barrett inspired me to order Being and Time and Being and Nothingness along with some essays by Heidigger on concepts of truth. They arrived today, and they're tomes. Don't know if I'll finish them before I die. I'm pretty old, but still game for a good idea. ...
Are you an English reader? If so here's a tip from my academic study experience, quickly read them backwards first if you want to get the gist as the weightier philosophical Germans and their language love logical structural building(that and that I think the joke that they were paid by the word is true), so they start with 'axioms' and build slowly demonstrating along the way to the conclusion which they hope you cannot avoid. Whereas 'we' tend to prefer the conclusion first and then the reasons why. So it can drive you 'insane' following an English translation of such as Heidegger, et al, as the terms become 'meaningless' with so much repetition(if I hear 'Dasein' one more time I'll scream!!) and you can get very frustrated when you realise that the last umpteen chapters were just trying to say one thing! :D
By the way, any particular reason that Existentialism isn't a category in this form?
Probably because it's a British site and not a Continental one. So 'Existentialism' falls under Metaphysics.

David Swift
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by David Swift » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Hey Arising_uk, Many thanks for the tips.

duszek
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by duszek » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:25 pm

David Swift wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:29 am

Found a copy of William Barrett's Irrational Man on a remainder table. It was assigned undergrad reading back in the day. I carried it for about two years but never cracked the cover. I read it a couple of weeks ago and I'm re-reading it now. Barrett says that Husserl walked through the door Kant left opened in his Critique of Pure Reason. He also says that Husserl's phenomenology divided the Essentialism of Plato, Descartes etc. from the Existentialism of Heidigger and Sartre. Well worth the read. Don't know if it would promote your views on life, but it offers new perspectives on perception and consciousness. Barrett inspired me to order Being and Time and Being and Nothingness along with some essays by Heidigger on concepts of truth. They arrived today, and they're tomes. Don't know if I'll finish them before I die. I'm pretty old, but still game for a good idea.

By the way, any particular reason that Existentialism isn't a category in this form?
Thank you Mr Swift, for your friendly encouragement.
New perspectives on perception and consciousness sound promissing to me.
Do you happen to know Arthur David Smith ?
The author of the Routledge Guidebook to Husserl.

David Swift
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by David Swift » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm

No not familiar with Mr. Smith or the guide or guides? I've spent my life reading original source material, and only now discovering the benefit of secondary analysis. Do you recommend any on Hiedegger?

Walker
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Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by Walker » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:53 pm

David Swift wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm
No not familiar with Mr. Smith or the guide or guides? I've spent my life reading original source material, and only now discovering the benefit of secondary analysis. Do you recommend any on Hiedegger?
What ancient and modern languages do you read and/or speak in order to access original source material?

David Swift
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: What would be important for you to do before dying ?

Post by David Swift » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:27 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:53 pm
David Swift wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm
No not familiar with Mr. Smith or the guide or guides? I've spent my life reading original source material, and only now discovering the benefit of secondary analysis. Do you recommend any on Hiedegger?
What ancient and modern languages do you read and/or speak in order to access original source material?
Plato has Socrates make a distinction between two kinds of arguments at his trial. One is the dialectic, a search for truth, appropriate to philosophers and another kind (I forget the adverb) that just scores points in an attempt to win at any cost, appropriate to the law courts. Which kind of argument are you making? Socrates refused to demean himself by engaging in the second kind, and so will I. Kindest Regards.

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