Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

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ForCruxSake
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by ForCruxSake »

uwot wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:What does it mean then?
Well, as I'm sure you appreciate by now, that depends on the context. There is no context, that I can imagine, in which n***** just means black and certainly none that I have read or heard. Since n***** has always meant black, in your experience, perhaps you could give an example.
It didn't even mean 'black' in the past.

A friend of mine's grandmother was a seamstress, who continued to sew into old age. She was like the Miss Marple of Dressmaking. She would buy her threads from proper haberdashery stores and had a huge collection of threads she had accumulated over the years. We would do 'haberdasher' runs for her, when she was too old to make it to the shops. One day she ran out of a particular shade of brown and my friend was duly asked to "Go to the thread shop and get me some 'ni99er brown'." No amount of explanation could get through to her that this thread would no longer available under that name, despite being "a trade standard" description.

My friend told me it was like arguing with Alf Garnet.

I always wondered how they matched a particular shade of skin colour to a particular shade of thread, given that there's a range of skin tones with every race type. These days we have countless foundations, to match to skin tones, in the makeup market... and guess what?!! In a industry where descriptions have to give some idea of colour, there's not one 'ni99er brown', because the word doesn't denote a shade of skin colour let alone describe black. It's a word that describes a race type, that goes beyond the colour of skin.

Whilst the word may have started off as a simple description, over the years it went from being an insult, to a badge of pride, and back again. It might as well be a 'synonym' for contention!

Words are like people. They are born 'without sin' and can become 'shitty' over the years depending on how they are used. You can never go back to pretending they are 'without sin'. It's a bit like remembering Myra Hindley for what a wonderful child she was.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

ForCruxSake wrote:
uwot wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:What does it mean then?
Well, as I'm sure you appreciate by now, that depends on the context. There is no context, that I can imagine, in which n***** just means black and certainly none that I have read or heard. Since n***** has always meant black, in your experience, perhaps you could give an example.
It didn't even mean 'black' in the past.

A friend of mine's grandmother was a seamstress, who continued to sew into old age. She was like the Miss Marple of Dressmaking. She would buy her threads from proper haberdashery stores and had a huge collection of threads she had accumulated over the years. We would do 'haberdasher' runs for her, when she was too old to make it to the shops. One day she ran out of a particular shade of brown and my friend was duly asked to "Go to the thread shop and get me some 'ni99er brown'." No amount of explanation could get through to her that this thread would no longer available under that name, despite being "a trade standard" description.

My friend told me it was like arguing with Alf Garnet.

I always wondered how they matched a particular shade of skin colour to a particular shade of thread, given that there's a range of skin tones with every race type. These days we have countless foundations, to match to skin tones, in the makeup market... and guess what?!! In a industry where descriptions have to give some idea of colour, there's not one 'ni99er brown', because the word doesn't denote a shade of skin colour let alone describe black. It's a word that describes a race type, that goes beyond the colour of skin.

Whilst the word may have started off as a simple description, over the years it went from being an insult, to a badge of pride, and back again. It might as well be a 'synonym' for contention!

Words are like people. They are born 'without sin' and can become 'shitty' over the years depending on how they are used. You can never go back to pretending they are 'without sin'. It's a bit like remembering Myra Hindley for what a wonderful child she was.
Racist American southerners used the word as an insult. So? What does that have to do with me?
uwot
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Racist American southerners used the word as an insult. So? What does that have to do with me?
So it doesn't mean only black.
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

uwot wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Racist American southerners used the word as an insult. So? What does that have to do with me?
So it doesn't mean only black.
They could have just as easily called them 'black'. Does that alter the meaning of 'black'? Then we would be seeing b**** instead of n*****. :)
ForCruxSake
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by ForCruxSake »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:
uwot wrote:Well, as I'm sure you appreciate by now, that depends on the context. There is no context, that I can imagine, in which n***** just means black and certainly none that I have read or heard. Since n***** has always meant black, in your experience, perhaps you could give an example.
It didn't even mean 'black' in the past.

A friend of mine's grandmother was a seamstress, who continued to sew into old age. She was like the Miss Marple of Dressmaking. She would buy her threads from proper haberdashery stores and had a huge collection of threads she had accumulated over the years. We would do 'haberdasher' runs for her, when she was too old to make it to the shops. One day she ran out of a particular shade of brown and my friend was duly asked to "Go to the thread shop and get me some 'ni99er brown'." No amount of explanation could get through to her that this thread would no longer available under that name, despite being "a trade standard" description.

My friend told me it was like arguing with Alf Garnet.

I always wondered how they matched a particular shade of skin colour to a particular shade of thread, given that there's a range of skin tones with every race type. These days we have countless foundations, to match to skin tones, in the makeup market... and guess what?!! In a industry where descriptions have to give some idea of colour, there's not one 'ni99er brown', because the word doesn't denote a shade of skin colour let alone describe black. It's a word that describes a race type, that goes beyond the colour of skin.

Whilst the word may have started off as a simple description, over the years it went from being an insult, to a badge of pride, and back again. It might as well be a 'synonym' for contention!

Words are like people. They are born 'without sin' and can become 'shitty' over the years depending on how they are used. You can never go back to pretending they are 'without sin'. It's a bit like remembering Myra Hindley for what a wonderful child she was.
Racist American southerners used the word as an insult. So? What does that have to do with me?
I was responding to uwot's post, that was responding to your question: "What does it mean then?", without which the context would have been less clear. So I suppose that that is 'what it may have to do with you'. If you felt it had nothing to do with you, which is fair enough, you needn't have responded.
uwot
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:They could have just as easily called them 'black'.
I'm sure some people attach exactly the same meaning to black, in the context of a black person, as when some say n*****.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Does that alter the meaning of 'black'?
It depends on the context.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Then we would be seeing b**** instead of n*****. :)
Sometimes black means only black.
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

uwot wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:They could have just as easily called them 'black'.
I'm sure some people attach exactly the same meaning to black, in the context of a black person, as when some say n*****.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Does that alter the meaning of 'black'?
It depends on the context.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Then we would be seeing b**** instead of n*****. :)
Sometimes black means only black.
I'm not superstitious. I don't give magical powers to individual words. Those racists might not be allowed to say 'the N word' (hilarious white American guiltism) but it hasn't stopped American cops from killing b**** Americans, and it certainly hasn't eliminated racism.
marjoram_blues
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by marjoram_blues »

I had a quick look at the Pinker video. What I recall is the focus on the word 'movement'.
So, rather than thinking of 'politically correct' as a descriptive phrase (as per linguistic meaning), it is more easily seen as a political process. And clearly, participants can range from mild to extreme.

I really didn't appreciate this as a particular 'movement', like eg the Civil Rights movement. I also can't readily identify the so-called 'PC brigade' which seems to draw ire. Perhaps because I have been insufficiently interested.

Clearly, people can take things too far in any 'party' but that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If even the slightest progress is made towards a more knowledgeable and reflective society, fair and well. I don't think anyone expects World Peace any time soon.

Was this A Politically Correct Movement broadcast ?
Tuning out.
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I'm not superstitious. I don't give magical powers to individual words.
What an strange thing to say. Oddly enough, you do seem to think that words can simultaneously mean only what you intend and what anyone else means too.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Those racists might not be allowed to say 'the N word' (hilarious white American guiltism)...
I don't think you can simply dismiss it like that. For one thing, I'm not an American.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...but it hasn't stopped American cops from killing b**** Americans...
No, but I doubt that such murderers would look as complacent as the ones you showed on page 1 of this thread.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...and it certainly hasn't eliminated racism.
I don't suppose it will, but that is no reason to tolerate racism.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Why do you think they chose the word n*****?
This is such a stupid and pointless 'argument'. What are you hoping to achieve? You never answer anything anyway, except with a repeated question. That's a coward's way to argue. Just say what you mean.
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

marjoram_blues wrote:I also can't readily identify the so-called 'PC brigade' which seems to draw ire. Perhaps because I have been insufficiently interested.
Well, the point I'm making is that the impact is ludicrously exaggerated by right wing nuts, which, in my view, should provoke more interest than the behaviour they are exploiting. There was a recent example in your neck of the woods. My daughter is at Edinburgh university where students are not allowed to dress as Pocahontas, because it is 'racist'. Yes it is ridiculously over zealous, but it is not the fall of western civilisation. (A term that could very well get me kicked out of the students union.)
marjoram_blues wrote:Tuning out.
Very wise.
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Why do you think they chose the word n*****?
There's a few to choose from: coon, wog, spade; the choice of word is not the issue, it is the attitude, or at least in some circumstances, the behaviour, of the user that needs challenging.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:This is such a stupid and pointless 'argument'. What are you hoping to achieve?
World peace. Failing that, it helps develop and clarify, even change, my own thoughts.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You never answer anything anyway, except with a repeated question. That's a coward's way to argue. Just say what you mean.
You mean like this?
"It's not clear to me whether you understand that dismissing buzzwords, labels and jargon as stupid and political-agenda-driven, is driven by the stupid political agenda of right wing nuts. Of course there are people others find irritating, and driving a wedge between them is simple divide and rule. Either you pay so much attention to language because you are a right wing nut, or you have been duped by them."
marjoram_blues
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by marjoram_blues »

uwot wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:I also can't readily identify the so-called 'PC brigade' which seems to draw ire. Perhaps because I have been insufficiently interested.
Well, the point I'm making is that the impact is ludicrously exaggerated by right wing nuts, which, in my view, should provoke more interest than the behaviour they are exploiting. There was a recent example in your neck of the woods. My daughter is at Edinburgh university where students are not allowed to dress as Pocahontas, because it is 'racist'. Yes it is ridiculously over zealous, but it is not the fall of western civilisation. (A term that could very well get me kicked out of the students union.)
marjoram_blues wrote:Tuning out.
Very wise.
:)

Erm...now you've got me curious...
Why would the students be dressing up as Pocahontas?
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by uwot »

marjoram_blues wrote:Erm...now you've got me curious...
Sorry about that.
marjoram_blues wrote:Why would the students be dressing up as Pocahontas?
It's some mating ritual called a Fancy Dress party: http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 24796.html
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Re: Is the term "redneck" politically correct ?

Post by marjoram_blues »

uwot wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:Erm...now you've got me curious...
Sorry about that.
marjoram_blues wrote:Why would the students be dressing up as Pocahontas?
It's some mating ritual called a Fancy Dress party: http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 24796.html
Good Golly :shock:
What would Hume say?
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