Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

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uwot
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by uwot »

Sorry. And ranting and screaming.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Arising_uk »

Immanuel Can wrote:...

I have asked you to show your evidence from the primary source. You have ranted and screamed, but not provided one iota.

The defense rests.
The defense appears to be blind and deaf then as Dubious gave you Nietzsche's words and thoughts about antisemitism in black and white.

What a shame as I had harboured a sneaking hope that IC was not just the theistic godbothering troll he appears to be and that he'd actually read some philosophy rather than being just another wiki warrior.

Oh! And if IC argues that his point is that it was Nietzsche's morality that led to Hitler then ask him how(if what he says is true about the theist being morally led by their 'God') it happened that the very Christian nation of Germany became led by the Nazi. Mine and Nietzsche's(I think) take would be that that their Christian morality is that of the sheep and as such they can be led by any old charismatic shepherd who comes along with a message that appeals to their credulity(not hard given they are men of faith). That is of course if you believe that history is a simple thing of absolutes, which I personally don't.
thedoc
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote: Not so Nietzsche. He not only had a very explicit antisocial philosophy, but pushed it with the kind of rhetorical flourishes unmatched by pulpit thumpers anywhere. He moralized without compunction, and self-recommended shamelessly. He denigrated goodness, mercy, women, the vulnerable and the "inferior," and exalted force. His destructiveness was polemical, deliberate and gleeful. And he left in his wake a very expansive philosophy of life in which "will to power" was justified as the highest good, and the restraining influence of any morality -- and explicitly, of "Judeo-Christian morality" was denied. If, later, somebody took him at his word, how is he not to blame for that?
Do you have quotes to support these claims? or are they your interpretations of what he wrote.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Immanuel Can »

thedoc wrote: Do you have quotes to support these claims? or are they your interpretations of what he wrote.
:D Have you read Nietzsche?

Pick a passage, and watch him rant. He loves rhetorical flourishes, hyperbole, insult, outrage, vituperation, and so on. You can't possibly miss it.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Arising_uk »

Immanuel Can wrote: :D Have you read Nietzsche? ...
:lol: Has IC read the New Testament?

rhetorical flourishes - “Did not Moses give you the law?”

hyperbole - "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away ..."

insult - “You blind fools!”

outrage - “You blind fools!”

vituperation - “You blind fools!”

You can't possibly miss it.

Oh and about women - " "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence".
thedoc
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote: Do you have quotes to support these claims? or are they your interpretations of what he wrote.
:D Have you read Nietzsche?

Pick a passage, and watch him rant. He loves rhetorical flourishes, hyperbole, insult, outrage, vituperation, and so on. You can't possibly miss it.
I read Nietzsche a long time ago.

Post a quote to support your claim. You made the claim, you post the quote, or admit that you can't.
Dubious
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote: Do you have quotes to support these claims? or are they your interpretations of what he wrote.
:D Have you read Nietzsche?

Pick a passage, and watch him rant. He loves rhetorical flourishes, hyperbole, insult, outrage, vituperation, and so on. You can't possibly miss it.
...you mean as in these subhuman "Human, All Too Human" flourishes of hyperbole, insult, outrage, vituperation, etc? Nietzsche described you Pharisaic types brilliantly in the expression The hypocrite who always plays one and the same role...among many others.

Human, All Too Human Quotes

Human, All Too Human Quotes (showing 1-30 of 92)

“There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings.”
tags: irreligion, religion

“Stupidity in a woman is unfeminine.”

“He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of dispute.”
tags: arguement, debate, disagreement, dispute, heat, ice, thoughts

“Most people are far too much occupied with themselves to be malicious.”
tags: human-nature, malice, people, selfishness

“And so, onwards... along a path of wisdom, with a hearty tread, a hearty confidence.. however you may be, be your own source of experience. Throw off your discontent about your nature. Forgive yourself your own self. You have it in your power to merge everything you have lived through- false starts, errors, delusions, passions, your loves and your hopes- into your goal, with nothing left over.”

“There is a certain right by which we many deprive a man of life, but none by which we may deprive him of death; this is mere cruelty.”
tags: capital-punishment, death, life, right-to-die, suicide

“As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples. ”
tags: philosophy, religion

“The one necessary thing.— A person must have one or the other. Either a cheerful disposition by nature, or a disposition made cheerful by art and knowledge.”

“It is not conflict of opinions that has made history so violent but conflict of belief in opinions, that is to say conflict of convictions.”

“At a certain place in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, for example, he might feel that he is floating above the earth in a starry dome, with the dream of immortality in his heart; all the stars seem to glimmer around him, and the earth seems to sink ever deeper downwards.”
tags: beethoven, music

“A man far oftener appears to have a decided character from persistently following his temperament than from persistently following his principles.”
tags: character, hypocrisy, inconsistancy, principles, temperament

“No one dies of fatal truths nowadays: there are too many antidotes.”
tags: truth, truths

“Marriage as a long conversation. - When marrying you should ask yourself this question: do you believe you are going to enjoy talking with this woman into your old age? Everything else in a marriage is transitory, but most of the time that you're together will be devoted to conversation.”
tags: life-partnerships, love, marriage, relationships

“He who speaks a bit of a foreign language has more delight in it than he who speaks it well; pleasure goes along with superficial knowledge.”
tags: foreign-language, superficial-knowledge

“The complete irresponsibility of man for his actions and his nature is the bitterest drop which he who understands must swallow.”
“We set no special value on the possession of a virtue until we percieve that it is entirely lacking in our adversary.”
tags: adversary, politics, value, values, virtue

“Language as putative science. -

The significance of language for the evolution of culture lies in this, that mankind set up in language a separate world beside the other world, a place it took to be so firmly set that, standing upon it, it could lift the rest of the world off its hinges and make itself master of it. To the extent that man has for long ages believed in the concepts and names of things as in aeternae veritates he has appropriated to himself that pride by which he raised himself above the animal: he really thought that in language he possessed knowledge of the world. The sculptor of language was not so modest as to believe that he was only giving things designations, he conceived rather that with words he was expressing supreame knowledge of things; language is, in fact, the first stage of occupation with science. Here, too, it is the belief that the truth has been found out of which the mightiest sources of energy have flowed. A great deal later - only now - it dawns on men that in their belief in language they have propagated a tremendous error. Happily, it is too late for the evolution of reason, which depends on this belief, to be put back. - Logic too depends on presuppositions with which nothing in the real world corresponds, for example on the presupposition that there are identical things, that the same thing is identical at different points of time: but this science came into existence through the opposite belief (that such conditions do obtain in the real world). It is the same with mathematics, which would certainly not have come into existence if one had known from the beginning that there was in nature no exactly straight line, no real circle, no absolute magnitude.”
tags: error-and-truth, language, math, science

“In reality, hope is the worst of all evils, because it prolongs man’s torments.”

“In conversation we are sometimes confused by the tone of our own voice, and mislead to make assertions that do not at all correspond to our opinions.”

“Truth as Circe. - Error has transformed animals into men; is truth perhaps capable of changing man back into an animal?”

“Socialism itself can hope to exist only for brief periods here and there, and then only through the exercise of the extremest terrorism. For this reason it is secretly preparing itself for rule through fear and is driving the word “justice” into the heads of the half-educated masses like a nail so as to rob them of their reason… and to create in them a good conscience for the evil game they are to play.”

“Our crime against criminals lies in the fact that we treat them like rascals.”
tags: crime, criminal, criminals, society

“Against the censurers of brevity. - Something said briefly can be the fruit of much long thought: but the reader who is a novice in this field, and has as yet reflected on it not at all, sees in everything said briefly something embryonic, not without censuring the author for having served him up such immature and unripened fare.”

“Ages of happiness. - An age of happiness is quite impossible, because men want only to desire it but not to have it, and every individual who experiences good times learns to downright pray for misery and disquietude. The destiny of man is designed for happy moments - every life has them - but not for happy ages. Nonetheless they will remain fixed in the imagination of man as 'the other side of the hill' because they have been inherited from ages past: for the concepts of the age of happiness was no doubt acquired in primeval times from that condition of which, after violent exertion in hunting and warfare, man gives himself up to repose, stretches his limbs and hears the pinions of sleep rustling about him. It is a false conclusion if, in accordance with that ancient familiar experience, man imagines that, after whole ages of toil and deprivation, he can then partake of that condition of happiness correspondingly enhanced and protracted.”

“When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?”
tags: nihilism

“One thing a man must have: either a naturally light disposition or a disposition lightened by art and knowledge.”
tags: art, disposition, happiness, knowledge, light-disposition

“Even when in the deepest distress, the actor ultimately cannot cease to think of the impression he and the whole scenic effect is making, even for example at the burial of his own child; he will weep over his own distress and the ways in which it expresses itself, as his own audience. The hypocrite who always plays one and the same role finally ceases to be a hypocrite; for example priests, who as young men are usually conscious or unconscious hypocrites, finally become natural and then really are priests without any affectation; or if the father fails to get that far then perhaps the son does so, employing his father's start and inheriting his habits. If someone obstinately and for a long time wants to appear something it is int he end hard for him to be anything else. The profession of almost every man, even that of the artist, begins with hypocrisy, with an imitation from without, with a copying of what is most effective. He who is always wearing a mask of a friendly countenance must finally acquire a power over benevolent moods without which the impression of friendliness cannot be obtained - and finally these acquire power over him, he is benevolent.”

“Do not talk about giftedness, inborn talents! One can name great men of all kinds who were very little gifted. They acquired greatness, became 'geniuses' (as we put it), through qualities the lack of which no one who knew what they were would boast of: they all pos­sessed that seriousness of the efficient workman which first learns to con­struct the parts properly before it ventures to fashion a great whole; they allowed themselves time for it, because they took more pleasure in making the little, secondary things well than in the effect of a dazzling whole”

“The free spirit again draws near to life - slowly, to be sure, almost reluctantly, almost mistrustfully. It again grows warmer about him, yellower as it were; feeling and feeling for others acquire depth, warm breezes of all kind blow across him. It seems to him as if his eyes are only now open to what is close at hand. he is astonished and sits silent: where had he been? These close and closest things: how changed they seem! what bloom and magic they have acquired!

He looks back gratefully - grateful to his wandering, to his hardness and self-alienation, to his viewing of far distances and bird-like flights in cold heights. What a good thing he had not always stayed "at home," stayed "under his own roof" like a delicate apathetic loafer! He had been -beside himself-: no doubt about that.

Only now does he see himself - and what surprises he experiences as he does so! What unprecedented shudders! What happiness even in the weariness, the old sickness, the relapses of the convalescent! How he loves to sit sadly still, to spin out patience, to lie in the sun! Who understands as he does the joy that comes in winter, the spots of sunlight on the wall!

They are the most grateful animals in the world, also the most modest, these convalescents and lizards again half-turned towards life: - there are some among them who allow no day to pass without hanging a little song of praise on the hem of its departing robe. And to speak seriously: to become sick in the manner of these free spirits, to remain sick for a long time and then, slowly, slowly, to become healthy, by which I mean "healthier," is a fundamental cure for all pessimism.”
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Immanuel Can »

thedoc wrote:Post a quote to support your claim. You made the claim, you post the quote, or admit that you can't.
Too easy...in fact, already done!

Did you not recognize that when I said things like "übermensch," "will to power," "Judeo-Christian morality," "why I am so wise" and "beyond good and evil," I was already quoting Nietzsche? But I could do much more of the same.

Why bother, though, since so much of it is already public record? Everything he wrote is online, and it's no secret what he taught. But I'll give you a couple, just to satisfy you.



"... hitherto we have been permitted to seek beauty only in the morally good - a fact which sufficiently accounts for our having found so little of it and having had to seek about for imaginary beauties without backbone! - As surely as the wicked enjoy a hundred kinds of happiness of which the virtuous have no inkling, so too they possess a hundred kinds of beauty; and many of them have not yet been discovered."

"Daybreak," s. 468, R.J. Hollingdale trans.



"When one gives up Christian belief one thereby deprives oneself of the right to Christian morality. For the latter is absolutely not self-evident: one must make this point clear again and again, in spite of English shallowpates."

Twilight of the Idols (1888)



"Morality is herd instinct in the individual"

The Gay Science (1882)



"[Anything which] is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant - not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power... 'Exploitation'... belongs to the essence of what lives, as a basic organic function; it is a consequence of the will to power, which is after all the will to life."

Beyond Good and Evil (1886)


And so on. The old boy was not at all shy about telling us that conventional (Judeo-Christian) morality no longer counted, and the will to power did, evil was really beautiful, and that the exercise of domination and exploitation was a new value. To read him is to know that, of course.

Now, if Hitler believed him and put it into action in a particular way not quite envisioned by Nietzsche, that's still on Nietzsche, for having cleared that ground for him. That is, unless we have equivalent quotations that show that Nietzsche's morality was actually more definite, and for some reason, was able to rule out Nazi atrocities and abuses as not being legitimate interpretations of what it means to be "beyond good and evil."

That is what I am awaiting, but not seeing. One has to wonder at the delay -- can it be so hard to show, if it were true that Nietzsche can't be interpreted as advocating such a thing? With almost any other pre-Nietzschean moral theorist, that job would be easy...why is it so hard with Nietzsche?
thedoc
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote:Post a quote to support your claim. You made the claim, you post the quote, or admit that you can't.
Too easy...in fact, already done!

And so on. The old boy was not at all shy about telling us that conventional (Judeo-Christian) morality no longer counted, and the will to power did, evil was really beautiful, and that the exercise of domination and exploitation was a new value. To read him is to know that, of course.

Now, if Hitler believed him and put it into action in a particular way not quite envisioned by Nietzsche, that's still on Nietzsche, for having cleared that ground for him. That is, unless we have equivalent quotations that show that Nietzsche's morality was actually more definite, and for some reason, was able to rule out Nazi atrocities and abuses as not being legitimate interpretations of what it means to be "beyond good and evil."

That is what I am awaiting, but not seeing. One has to wonder at the delay -- can it be so hard to show, if it were true that Nietzsche can't be interpreted as advocating such a thing? With almost any other pre-Nietzschean moral theorist, that job would be easy...why is it so hard with Nietzsche?
Thankyou, now it is the turn of those who object, to provide quotes that disprove what you have shown to be true.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote: Why bother, though, since so much of it is already public record?
Public record can sometimes be twisted to say something that is not stated in the original. I, myself, have been the victim of this twisting of something I have posted, into something I did not say.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Arising_uk »

Immanuel Can wrote:...

And so on. The old boy was not at all shy about telling us that conventional (Judeo-Christian) morality no longer counted, and the will to power did, evil was really beautiful, and that the exercise of domination and exploitation was a new value. To read him is to know that, of course.

Now, if Hitler believed him and put it into action in a particular way not quite envisioned by Nietzsche, that's still on Nietzsche, for having cleared that ground for him. That is, unless we have equivalent quotations that show that Nietzsche's morality was actually more definite, and for some reason, was able to rule out Nazi atrocities and abuses as not being legitimate interpretations of what it means to be "beyond good and evil."

That is what I am awaiting, but not seeing. One has to wonder at the delay -- can it be so hard to show, if it were true that Nietzsche can't be interpreted as advocating such a thing? With almost any other pre-Nietzschean moral theorist, that job would be easy...why is it so hard with Nietzsche?
Because unlike you theists he's not telling others what they should do morally, just giving them a rule to follow and letting them decide what is moral or not. The individual not the herd and definitely not through fear of punishment by imaginary beings. He believed that the Overman may well arrive one day and on that day morality would truly exist. It is this that the theist fears as they believe Man is evil, including themselves, and so cannot conceive that a man may well choose other than 'evil'. Hitler followed Wagner not Nietzsche and what he got of Nietzsche he got from the bastardized version that Nietzsche's sister concocted. A version that Dubious has already shown from his quotes that Nietzsche abhorred.

The quote "God is Dead" came from Nietzsche's understanding of what Darwin was saying, as following the displacement of the Earth from the center of 'God's' view by Copernicus and Galileo the Christian Church(apart from trying to suppress it) responded by making Man the center of 'God's' view and Darwin was challenging that. This led Nietzsche to think that this 'God' was now dead and followed that train of thought whither it went.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by Immanuel Can »

thedoc wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote: Why bother, though, since so much of it is already public record?
Public record can sometimes be twisted to say something that is not stated in the original. I, myself, have been the victim of this twisting of something I have posted, into something I did not say.
I just meant that his entire works are online, in the public domain. Anybody can find out what Nietzsche said, provided that they regard the standard canon of Nietzsche writings as authentic.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by ForCruxSake »

attofishpi wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote: I don't think people are sniggering at the fact that there is no God, I think they are angry at what others do in the name of a God who seems only present in heartfelt interpretations of others, who describe themselves as witnesses. What has God done to prevent death or disaster, that wipes out, not just the guilty, but those innocent of sin?
In all likelihood - saved them to reincarnate in safer pastures. Reality is a convoluted apparition of the Truth. There is a reason for 'God' to leave us with DOUBT.
Reincarnate where? I thought the afterlife in the Judeo-Chritianic religions, promised, not rebirth, but spiritual liberation in 'heaven' or penance in 'hell'? Islam is not open to the idea of reincarnation, from what I know.
attofishpi wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:We are openly witness to corporate and political corruption and left feeling 'why on earth should we be good, if those in power can't?', which opens up the question, 'Why be moral if it doesn't benefit you as an individual and you can get away with not being moral?''
Conscience. Secular or religious, there's conscience. That's all we have... and conscience develops with upbringing.
Yes it does. In a secular upbringing there is only the consequence of man's punishment for ones indiscretions. If everyone had true faith in there being a judgment for their life, they would be less likely to kill an innocent person for financial gain...if they had faith and still committed such a terrible act - well they are the greatest of fools.
You're right, secular conscience can be shaped by a sense of retribution to be faced in this life, but how is that really any different to the "judgement for their life" when living with the "true faith", except that punishment (and conversely reward) is more immediate and identifiable in this life? That seems rather sensible to me. The folly to me, lies in banking the judgement on all your actions, and the consequences thereof, in an institution you can neither see nor really engage with.

There are those who live with a religious sense of persecution and reward, for their acts in life, as meted out by God in the afterlife, so fear of God's judgement strikes me as having the same effect as knowing that you would go to prison for wrongdoing in the secular world.

If anything the religious sense of retribution is more dangerous when we see no proof of the consequences. It's a gamble, for instance, that Muslim fanatics might be taking, when they decide to become suicide bombers, in the hope of the warmth from the curvaceous bodies of a harem of heavenly virgins and not the greater warmth of brimstone and hellfire. They have no real certainty of their reward, or punishment, in the afterlife, as they do of the certain punishment they would face at the hands of the state.

"True faith" doesn't make all religious people moral... and it's not as if secular people have no moral compass. I think a sense of love for one's fellow man can grow in someone who carries a secular conscience. I'd like to think we all know good people, both secular and religious. Some people just carry a sense of what is right and wrong, civil and decent, because treating others as you would like to be treated yourself is commonsensical, not because 'God told you so'.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by ForCruxSake »

uwot wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:The defense rests.
You are the prosecution, you fool. What is your case against Nietzsche other than your own " "interpretation" or "gloss" at best, at worst, merely "propaganda" or "spin." " ?
It could be that his 'defense rests' in his defence of himself, as he castigates Nietszche. But otherwise, you really should think of a career in law, if you're not already there.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly"s downfall

Post by ForCruxSake »

attofishpi wrote: Reality is a convoluted apparition of the Truth. There is a reason for 'God' to leave us with DOUBT.
This line is haunting me.

So God has created us with a flawed mechanism, for detecting 'truth', called 'perception', with reason to create 'doubt' , whilst all the while wanting us to accept 'true faith' in Him?

Is this some kind of warped, but divine, reality game show? "I've No Idea What You're Up To... Get Me Out of Here!"

Why would He do that? And how could we/you possibly know??? (Bible quotes don't count as proof, I'm afraid.)
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