Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Nick_A » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:33 pm
Nic wrote:
As I understand it NOW IS. As such it is a quality of consciousness beyond the limitations of time and of space. In contrast the universe EXISTS
As such it carries out the process of existence within time and space. From this perspective the process of existence takes place within NOW
NOW takes place within existence. The Universe is ALL THERE IS so nothing can exist outside of it. Consciousness is a function of the brain
They are organs that exist within the Universe so consciousness must also exist within the Universe not beyond the limitations of time and
space. The only place time and space cannot exist is within an absolute vacuum but that state cannot persist due to quantum fluctuations

I mean an absolute vacuum in the sense of time and space not existing at all so this would also include quantum fluctuations
A point that was non physical and had zero dimension to it meaning literally nothing could exist within its non existent space
A pure question: Is NOW within the universe or does the process of universal existence take place within NOW? Since for me the ONE of Plotinus and the GOOD of Plato are both NOW, I consider the PROCESS of existence as taking place within the ISNESS of NOW

surreptitious57
Posts: 1575
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:39 pm

Nic wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Nic wrote:
As I understand it NOW IS. As such it is a quality of consciousness beyond the limitations of time and of space In contrast the
universe EXISTS. As such it carries out the process of existence within time and space. From this perspective the process
of existence takes place within NOW
NOW takes place within existence. The Universe is ALL THERE IS so nothing can exist outside of it. Consciousness is a function of the brain
They are organs that exist within the Universe so consciousness must also exist within the Universe not beyond the limitations of time and
space. The only place time and space cannot exist is within an absolute vacuum but that state cannot persist due to quantum fluctuations

I mean an absolute vacuum in the sense of time and space not existing at all so this would also include quantum fluctuations
A point that was non physical and had zero dimension to it meaning literally nothing could exist within its non existent space
A pure question: Is NOW within the universe or does the process of universal existence take place within NOW? Since for me the
ONE of Plotinus and the GOOD of Plato are both NOW I consider the PROCESS of existence as taking place within the ISNESS of NOW
What of NOW before Plotinus and Plato existed or before human beings existed? The Universe by definition has always existed for it is ALL THERE IS and so then anything coming into it such as human beings must be a part of it as well. Human beings will not always exist but the Universe will And so the eternal NOW instead of being regarded as something outside of the Universe actually IS the Universe. For it cannot be outside of some thing which is defined as ALL THERE IS. For that is both logically and physically impossible

Nick_A
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Nick_A » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:59 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:39 pm
Nic wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:

NOW takes place within existence. The Universe is ALL THERE IS so nothing can exist outside of it. Consciousness is a function of the brain
They are organs that exist within the Universe so consciousness must also exist within the Universe not beyond the limitations of time and
space. The only place time and space cannot exist is within an absolute vacuum but that state cannot persist due to quantum fluctuations

I mean an absolute vacuum in the sense of time and space not existing at all so this would also include quantum fluctuations
A point that was non physical and had zero dimension to it meaning literally nothing could exist within its non existent space
A pure question: Is NOW within the universe or does the process of universal existence take place within NOW? Since for me the
ONE of Plotinus and the GOOD of Plato are both NOW I consider the PROCESS of existence as taking place within the ISNESS of NOW
What of NOW before Plotinus and Plato existed or before human beings existed? The Universe by definition has always existed for it is ALL THERE IS and so then anything coming into it such as human beings must be a part of it as well. Human beings will not always exist but the Universe will And so the eternal NOW instead of being regarded as something outside of the Universe actually IS the Universe. For it cannot be outside of some thing which is defined as ALL THERE IS. For that is both logically and physically impossible
But that is the point. The universe exists and existence is a process. NOW IS. ISness is timeless so for us always was and always will be. NOW IS. The universe exists. There is no before and after for NOW. Before and after are measures of the process of universal existence.

Dontaskme
Posts: 3076
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:02 am

I tried living out of the now

I did things like:
laugh before jokes,
wakeup before sunrise,
drink from empty glasses,
run in place,
write journals with invisible ink,
etc.


total failure
it's all now for me now.

.

ken
Posts: 2032
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:47 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:55 pm
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Is that the absolute truth or just a theory
It is the truth and not just a theory because it can be empirically tested. Clocks can also change speed depending on direction
The famous I97I experiment involving a plane flying from East to West and vice versa showed a difference in the journey times
It had to be measured by a caesium clock so it was infinitesimal but the experiment nevertheless demonstrated that it existed
okay, so you say it is the truth. But are you open to the fact that it may in fact not actually be the truth?
Last edited by ken on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Viveka
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:38 pm

ken wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:31 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:40 pm
ken wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm


Ah okay, so clocks just NATURALLY go faster and slower depending on what altitude they are at, relative to earth. Is that the absolute truth or just a theory?

Do you have first hand experience of this occurring, thus first hand knowledge of that as being factually true, if you do? And, if you do, are you just accepting that as being a true fact from what others have told you?

There is so much more to look at here if, again, any one is really interested?
Well, to test it truly we would have to build a building so tall it's ridiculous. Maybe a space-elevator would demonstrate it well. The reason is because of the speed of light.
The reason for what exactly is because of the speed of light?

To Me you appear to be jumping ahead of yourself, but I will await your answer first.
Essentially it is because matter approaches the speed of light, and that's when the weird stuff starts happening like length-contraction and time dilation.
ken wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:31 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:40 pm
It's the same reason why length contraction and time dilation are so hard to demonstrate empirically.
Are you saying here that the speed of light is the reason why length contraction and time dilation are so hard to demonstrate empirically?
Basically. When matter approaches the speed of light, to be exact.

Viveka
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:46 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:55 pm
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Is that the absolute truth or just a theory
It is the truth and not just a theory because it can be empirically tested. Clocks can also change speed depending on direction
The famous I97I experiment involving a plane flying from East to West and vice versa showed a difference in the journey times
It had to be measured by a caesium clock so it was infinitesimal but the experiment nevertheless demonstrated that it existed
Which was barely above 'noise' level of confirmation. We have to have something that is fast enough to really approach the needed speeds for the mass to come close to light speed. 600 mph is about as fast as a passenger flight goes. Maybe mach 3 is the fastest we have. To use a clock on something like that would be nice, but would it really approach light speed enough?

ken
Posts: 2032
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am

To Me, what will be discovered and found is that the reason there was a supposed difference in "journey times" was NOT because the clocks slowed down or sped up BUT was because they were "time travelling". If you were to travel east around earth faster than the speed of light, then you go back in time, and, if you go west faster than the speed of light, then you go into the future. Clocks do NOT slow down and speed up relative to speed and/nor altitude, nor to any thing else, besides of course the power source. Instead, you, or clocks, move in "time" relative to the NOW when you or the clocks left.

For example, if you and a clock left earth in a ufo and travel at the speed of light to alpha centauri it would take you, the clock, and the ufo 4.367 years to get there. So, you, the clock, and the ufo age by 4.367 years. The body has to keep eating meals, keep urinating, and keep defecating. The hair on the body keeps growing and the body will continue to sweat and get dirty, and as long as the power source stays relative the same the clock changes at a same rate equivalent to 4.367 years. However, when you arrive on alpha centauri and look back at earth you are just leaving, so it looks like you have arrived instantly, and, from earth it appears as though you landed instantly relative to when you left. So, what appears to have happened is that time has stopped but the truth is what has actually happened is you, the clock, and the ufo have only traveled relative to the time of NOW.

The only time that exists is the time of NOW. And, because everything is relative to the observer, NOW is the only reference point we have to use. Time does NOT change, slow down, speed up, nor stop. Only the reference point of NOW changes.

Time is measured solely against light, so if the speed of light is fixed, then so is time.

Viveka
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:36 pm

If anything, I've been wondering if we have a train with a light-clock on it, and a man with a light-clock on the embankment what would happen? The light-clock would work by cycles of being reflected once up and once down for one full cycle. Now, when the train starts moving, does it, or does it not have the same time as the embankment clock? If it does, then relativity is wrong because of simultaneity and non-relativity regardless of motion the clocks would be in synchronicity. If it doesn't have the same time, then there's a contradiction since both clocks are set to be at the same time regardless of motion.

davidm
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by davidm » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:37 pm

ken wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am
To Me, what will be discovered and found is that the reason there was a supposed difference in "journey times" was NOT because the clocks slowed down or sped up BUT was because they were "time travelling". If you were to travel east around earth faster than the speed of light, then you go back in time, and, if you go west faster than the speed of light, then you go into the future. Clocks do NOT slow down and speed up relative to speed and/nor altitude, nor to any thing else, besides of course the power source. Instead, you, or clocks, move in "time" relative to the NOW when you or the clocks left.

For example, if you and a clock left earth in a ufo and travel at the speed of light to alpha centauri it would take you, the clock, and the ufo 4.367 years to get there. So, you, the clock, and the ufo age by 4.367 years. The body has to keep eating meals, keep urinating, and keep defecating. The hair on the body keeps growing and the body will continue to sweat and get dirty, and as long as the power source stays relative the same the clock changes at a same rate equivalent to 4.367 years. However, when you arrive on alpha centauri and look back at earth you are just leaving, so it looks like you have arrived instantly, and, from earth it appears as though you landed instantly relative to when you left. So, what appears to have happened is that time has stopped but the truth is what has actually happened is you, the clock, and the ufo have only traveled relative to the time of NOW.

The only time that exists is the time of NOW. And, because everything is relative to the observer, NOW is the only reference point we have to use. Time does NOT change, slow down, speed up, nor stop. Only the reference point of NOW changes.

Time is measured solely against light, so if the speed of light is fixed, then so is time.
This is completely false.

ken
Posts: 2032
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:58 am

davidm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:37 pm
ken wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am
To Me, what will be discovered and found is that the reason there was a supposed difference in "journey times" was NOT because the clocks slowed down or sped up BUT was because they were "time travelling". If you were to travel east around earth faster than the speed of light, then you go back in time, and, if you go west faster than the speed of light, then you go into the future. Clocks do NOT slow down and speed up relative to speed and/nor altitude, nor to any thing else, besides of course the power source. Instead, you, or clocks, move in "time" relative to the NOW when you or the clocks left.

For example, if you and a clock left earth in a ufo and travel at the speed of light to alpha centauri it would take you, the clock, and the ufo 4.367 years to get there. So, you, the clock, and the ufo age by 4.367 years. The body has to keep eating meals, keep urinating, and keep defecating. The hair on the body keeps growing and the body will continue to sweat and get dirty, and as long as the power source stays relative the same the clock changes at a same rate equivalent to 4.367 years. However, when you arrive on alpha centauri and look back at earth you are just leaving, so it looks like you have arrived instantly, and, from earth it appears as though you landed instantly relative to when you left. So, what appears to have happened is that time has stopped but the truth is what has actually happened is you, the clock, and the ufo have only traveled relative to the time of NOW.

The only time that exists is the time of NOW. And, because everything is relative to the observer, NOW is the only reference point we have to use. Time does NOT change, slow down, speed up, nor stop. Only the reference point of NOW changes.

Time is measured solely against light, so if the speed of light is fixed, then so is time.
This is completely false.
Thank you.

Is every single part of this completely false?

Can you elaborate at all, or provide any evidence at all for what you say?

davidm
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by davidm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:47 am

ken wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:58 am
]Thank you.

Is every single part of this completely false?
Yes.
Can you elaborate at all, or provide any evidence at all for what you say?
Sure. The question is, where to begin? :?

davidm
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by davidm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:50 am

OK, let's start with this:
ken wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am
If you were to travel east around earth faster than the speed of light, then you go back in time, and, if you go west faster than the speed of light, then you go into the future.
Where did you ever get this idea? From the 1979 Superman movie? :?

surreptitious57
Posts: 1575
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:08 am

For anything to travel beyond light speed time would simply stop but this is academic as nothing can travel beyond light speed
anyway. As the energy required to do so would have to be infinite which is greater than the total energy of the entire Universe
And also atoms would become so unstable at light speed that electrons could not exist and all matter would simply deteriorate

ken
Posts: 2032
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:19 am

davidm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:50 am
OK, let's start with this:
ken wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am
If you were to travel east around earth faster than the speed of light, then you go back in time, and, if you go west faster than the speed of light, then you go into the future.
Where did you ever get this idea? From the 1979 Superman movie? :?
That is a good place to begin.

The answer to your two questions are No and No, however, that movie, I am completely honest, may have had some indirect bearing on what I see and understand.

As I said, "To Me, what WILL BE discovered and found is...". So, what I said will, in the future, either be proved false, true, or partly true and false. We will have to wait and see. But you however have clarified that every single thing I wrote is false. I then asked you if you could elaborate at all, or provide any evidence at all for what you say? You answered Sure.

You began by asking two questions to Me. Now that is NOT elaborating at all on nor providing any evidence at all on your absolute statement that every single thing I said is false.

Now that you have had some time to think about where you would like to begin, would you like to start now elaborating on exactly how every thing I said is false and/or provide some evidence for what you see is the actual truth.

Prove what I said is false, do not just say it is false.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests