An education worth dying for.

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Vendetta
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Vendetta » Sun May 07, 2017 1:52 am

The flaw in education is the suppression of independent ideas and views on concepts. Students are taught not to question so as not to disrupt the class or to insult anyone. But if we aren't to question, how are we to find out the truth? One cannot possibly say that because you are a teacher that your method of tackling issues or viewing the world is the most correct.
Schooling is too monotonous. There definitely should be revision in what exactly we are required to know. Some things seem extremely unnecessary and irrelevant to life except for with very specific fields.

Dontaskme
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun May 07, 2017 11:53 am

Vendetta wrote:The flaw in education is the suppression of independent ideas and views on concepts. Students are taught not to question so as not to disrupt the class or to insult anyone. But if we aren't to question, how are we to find out the truth? One cannot possibly say that because you are a teacher that your method of tackling issues or viewing the world is the most correct.
Schooling is too monotonous. There definitely should be revision in what exactly we are required to know. Some things seem extremely unnecessary and irrelevant to life except for with very specific fields.
Thanks for you view...My two sense on this subject..is that if you don't adhere to the status quo then that's fine we have no problem with that...but if you want do your own critical thinking ..do it in your own time and in your own space...not on our watch.

In other words...Don't rock the boat of a well and long established institutional ritualistic man-made indoctrinated law, and how dare you enculturate these laws, by inculcating your own.

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Vendetta
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Vendetta » Sun May 07, 2017 2:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Vendetta wrote:The flaw in education is the suppression of independent ideas and views on concepts. Students are taught not to question so as not to disrupt the class or to insult anyone. But if we aren't to question, how are we to find out the truth? One cannot possibly say that because you are a teacher that your method of tackling issues or viewing the world is the most correct.
Schooling is too monotonous. There definitely should be revision in what exactly we are required to know. Some things seem extremely unnecessary and irrelevant to life except for with very specific fields.
Thanks for you view...My two sense on this subject..is that if you don't adhere to the status quo then that's fine we have no problem with that...but if you want do your own critical thinking ..do it in your own time and in your own space...not on our watch.

In other words...Don't rock the boat of a well and long established institutional ritualistic man-made indoctrinated law, and how dare you enculturate these laws, by inculcating your own.
This implies that the status quo is the most correct, and is an appeal to tradition in the sense that you suggest that becuase something has been long established then it must be what's best.
What if someone discovers that what we are teaching is wrong? You'd rather them not correct us so that we can all understand the way things truly are, so that we can maintain a sense of order?

Science Fan
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Science Fan » Sun May 28, 2017 11:23 pm

Rather an odd claim, since all of science teaches people to question existing science and to determine if there is a better explanatory theory we can come up with. This is definitely true for the physical and natural sciences. The social sciences, at least in theory, have the same goal, and, in any case, there are typically many different competing schools of thought in any given social science, and each school of thought, at the very least, encourages criticism of the other schools, even if it ruled out any criticism against its own position. This will still lead, in the aggregate, to every school of thought facing criticism, and not enjoying a position of unquestioned acceptance. Something similar is present in the humanities, and many in the humanities also have truth as their goal, and believe questioning existing positions is consistent with this goal. Engineering and technology disciplines are constantly trying to come up with better ways of doing things, so they also encourage questioning of existing methods. I'm not sure what schools are out there that encourage blind obedience, except, possibly, religious schools.

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Greta
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Greta » Mon May 29, 2017 4:15 am

Science Fan wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 11:23 pm
Rather an odd claim, since all of science teaches people to question existing science and to determine if there is a better explanatory theory we can come up with. This is definitely true for the physical and natural sciences. The social sciences, at least in theory, have the same goal, and, in any case, there are typically many different competing schools of thought in any given social science, and each school of thought, at the very least, encourages criticism of the other schools, even if it ruled out any criticism against its own position. This will still lead, in the aggregate, to every school of thought facing criticism, and not enjoying a position of unquestioned acceptance. Something similar is present in the humanities, and many in the humanities also have truth as their goal, and believe questioning existing positions is consistent with this goal. Engineering and technology disciplines are constantly trying to come up with better ways of doing things, so they also encourage questioning of existing methods. I'm not sure what schools are out there that encourage blind obedience, except, possibly, religious schools.
Well said.

I agree with osgart about the need to teach people skills they need for the workplace. The main issue, though, is economic rationalisation of education (bad for arts subjects) and political controversies (bad for the humanities and, increasingly treating science as a political football). As a result of economic, political and legal pressures, increasingly the only thing our education system will be able to do is provide job-related skills and core teaching for further education. Anything even remotely philosophical will be out of bounds, deemed as anything from unnecessary frippery to indoctrination. Thus philosophy for the ordinary person becoming the domain of family, friends, media and Google.

Given the specialisation of society, and how most people will increasingly only be able to obtain menial positions as smart technology replaces smart jobs, it would seem "unnecessary to train the cattle", so to speak. Cuts to education can be seen as political in that sense.

Walker
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Walker » Mon May 29, 2017 2:08 pm

The cost of education is now prohibitive, and the reason lies in the incestuous relationship between academia and and the politics that leaves academia rapaciousness unchecked and unregulated.

Colleges raise tuition every year, while sitting on enormous endowments, and then they nickel and dime the poor kids with fees for everything that add up to thousands more. The price of textbooks is criminal.

Most families cannot afford a college education, the loans are one more burden to carry, for decades, when the student should be buying a house, car, and other things. It drains the economy. A student may want to study philosophy but also needs to pay a heavy debt for the education, the federal government profits in interest from the loans to students, and the loans are immune to bankruptcy laws. Those on the collection side of this system are making some pretty fat paychecks, too.

It wasn’t always so. People actually used to work their way through college. Instead, now it’s Spring break. Play now, pay for the rest of your life.

Like an inflamed boil, this is one scandal ready to pop.

Science Fan
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Science Fan » Mon May 29, 2017 5:29 pm

One of the major reasons for high-tuition costs is the federal student loan program. That program provided more money for students, and, as a result, colleges and universities increased their tuition. This is basic supply and demand. In response to the rising tuition, the loan program was expanded. This has led to students graduating with enormous debt loads. Had the federal government used the money to encourage low tuition rates at colleges and universities, students would not be facing their debt burden they are now experiencing. This is a simple example of how people often ignore basic economics when coming up with feel-good political solutions.

Walker
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Walker » Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm

A college education has been perpetrated into the zeitgeist by educators themselves. A diploma has been sold as the ticket to the good life, not as an education to expand awareness. Once it becomes highly desirable, then all that’s left is devising a system that the market will bear.

Weird that the most impactful decision of a lifetime must be made when people are young. Youth makes the knowing that backs the most important decisions something other than experience.

Colleges now offer a lot of remedial classes. Many people are ill-equipped for college, have no business being there, and so to self-sustain, the universities adjust the philosophy of education to prop up a public school system that is not getting the job done, regardless of how idealistic and well-intentioned teachers in the trenches may be.

7 minutes of nonsense, with whooing.
Demanding rights without responsibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg

tbieter
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by tbieter » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:49 am

Walker wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm
A college education has been perpetrated into the zeitgeist by educators themselves. A diploma has been sold as the ticket to the good life, not as an education to expand awareness. Once it becomes highly desirable, then all that’s left is devising a system that the market will bear.

Weird that the most impactful decision of a lifetime must be made when people are young. Youth makes the knowing that backs the most important decisions something other than experience.

Colleges now offer a lot of remedial classes. Many people are ill-equipped for college, have no business being there, and so to self-sustain, the universities adjust the philosophy of education to prop up a public school system that is not getting the job done, regardless of how idealistic and well-intentioned teachers in the trenches may be.

7 minutes of nonsense, with whooing.
Demanding rights without responsibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg
To the white male Evergreen faculty members, I would quote Eric Voegelin ("No one needs to participate in the aberrations of his times"), and advise them to seek work elsewhere in civilized institutions. Flee the barbarians!

thedoc
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by thedoc » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 pm

osgart wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 1:06 am
education should be relevant towards getting a good job and not stray into superfluous information.
Education should teach everyone how to learn, the biggest failing is to teach one-size-fit's-all. Everyone has a different means of learning and education must take that into account, so far it doesn't. Education must also be ready to admit that it isn't the end all and be all of knowledge, my daughter and I were discussing one of the subjects she was learning in school, and I tried to tell her that there was more to it than what she had learned but she insisted that what she know was all there was. I believe it was the teachers way of cutting off questions that the teacher couldn't answer.

thedoc
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by thedoc » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:28 pm

tbieter wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:49 am
To the white male Evergreen faculty members, I would quote Eric Voegelin ("No one needs to participate in the aberrations of his times"), and advise them to seek work elsewhere in civilized institutions. Flee the barbarians!
During college I read "The Peter Principle" and decided that if i found a job that I liked, I would resist any attempt to advance above that level. Once I worked as a draftsman and I enjoyed being on the board making drawings. During an evaluation My supervisor asked to what do I aspire, and I answered that I didn't aspire to be anything more than a draftsman. He responded that we couldn't put that down and we had to say that I aspired to be a technician even though I didn't.

Dontaskme
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:57 am

I've been fortunate enough to have landed my all time dream job - which is > ( Doing Nothing)
When ever I'm asked by certain people ...what do you do for a living in regards to my employment status.. I reply by saying nothing. I seriously never imagined I would ever enjoy doing nothing, I highly recommend it.

It's so funny when I reflect on some of the jobs I've applied for in the past. Always during an interview I would be questioned as to why and what my motives and intentions were regarding why I would want the particular job position available to me. Of course I would have to lie through my teeth and not tell them that my real reason for applying for the job was because I needed the money to pay the bills and mortgage and so forth. Rather, I would have to make up some obvious corny, cringe-worthy, but cleverly disguised witty comments that would hopefully tick all their calibrated boxes. Hopefully, I'd be able to say something that would impress, even though sucking ass with people is not really my cup of tea. But hey ho, just tell them want they really want to hear...

.

Walker
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Walker » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:07 pm

Two advantages to vertical rather than horizontal growth is that you’re not desperate enough to lie to get the job, and you have more knowledge than your boss, although not necessarily in the specific power games that come with the tribalism of his/her particularly structured work environment.

Walker
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by Walker » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:44 pm

tbieter wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:49 am
To the white male Evergreen faculty members, I would quote Eric Voegelin ("No one needs to participate in the aberrations of his times"), and advise them to seek work elsewhere in civilized institutions. Flee the barbarians!
“It is selective, with an acceptance rate of 98 percent.”
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ev ... llege-8155

Doesn’t such a high acceptance rate indicate that the college is in fact, not selective?
- I wonder what the reason for not being selected could possibly be.

thedoc
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Re: An education worth dying for.

Post by thedoc » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:10 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:07 pm
Two advantages to vertical rather than horizontal growth is that you’re not desperate enough to lie to get the job, and you have more knowledge than your boss, although not necessarily in the specific power games that come with the tribalism of his/her particularly structured work environment.
I was in that exact situation when I was working as a draftsman, I was working on some drawings for an overhead crane and the engineer and previous draftsman had gone to a lot of trouble getting the specifications of the exact rail that was to be used and then specifying the center to center distance for the rails. I pointed out that the proper way to spec. for flanged wheels on rails, was to specify the gauge of the rails and let everything else up to the contractor. The Engineer got upset that I would question his judgment and told me to get off the job. My supervisor asked why I wasn't working on the drawings, and I explained what had happened. He called the engineer, I got an apology from the engineer, and was told to go back to work on the drawings and do it the correct way, my way.

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