What are concepts according to materialism?

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raw_thought
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Hobbes choice,
Yes one can walk and one can drive a car. Those two ideas do not contradict eaxh other. However, being an atheist that believes in God, or a materialist that believes in qualia,does contradict.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Play different sides of an argument? See my posts. I talked about that. Imitation is the sincerist form of flattery. Also, your continued use of "silly" and "similarly "! Thanks for the continued compliments!!!!
Tho your comments are unoriginal. I still enjoy them.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

]]
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
I wonder why that is?
Why of course, their need to prove their god.

.[/quote]
Ummmm....so proving that I feel pain is the same as proving that God and leprechauns exist????? :lol:[/quote]
I'm confused. That is logic from another dimension!
Ginkgo
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:It's kinda funny how some people just have to believe that there is some sort of ghost in the machine.
I wonder why that is?
Saying that feelings exist is not the same as believing in ghosts. There is empirical evidence (I experience pain etc) that feelings exist. There is no credible evidence that ghosts exist.
Just so there is no confusion. Qualia in terms of experience is not of the same type of experience we find wen we talk about empiricism. Two different meanings or understanding are required .One type for materialists/physicalists and the other type for proponents of qualia.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:I can prove it to myself! I feel pain. I know that I can see a visualized triangle in my mind's eye. Qualia is pure empiricism! Materialism is implied, not experienced.
Empiricism is about observations of the world, not sense experience per se: though you can argue that the distinction between them is about interpretation.
What you are talking about is more like existentialism.
Guess what I can be an existentialist and a materialist all at the same time.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote: It would be like saying that if you are a good physicist, you must be a good music composer. Since music is physical (patterns of air vibrations).
In terms of a physicalist/materialist explanation you are closer to the mark than you probably realize. The validity of your statement depends on your attitude towards the ability hypothesis. It is the particular vibrations of the air that is the music. In a similar fashion, it is the neurons firing in a particular way that is the triangle. In other words, it is the way the neurons work that gives me the ability to imagine, visualize a triangle. Having the 'ability' to imagine or visualize a triangle is the key when it comes to the physicalist/materialist point of view.

Might I suggest it might be fruitful to direct you criticism towards the ability hypothesis.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Ginkgo wrote: Just so there is no confusion. Qualia in terms of experience is not of the same type of experience we find wen we talk about empiricism. Two different meanings or understanding are required .One type for materialists/physicalists and the other type for proponents of qualia.
How can we have sensory data if we believe that we have no feelings ( the subjective experience of green, volume etc).
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Guess what I can be an existentialist and a materialist all at the same time.
Sartre (and other existentialists believed in free will. That is impossible with materialism.
Existentialists also talk about how consciousness (qualia) is what determines who we are. In other words consciousness determines what role (that I see myself as a Democrat,Republican, teacher,waiter....) I adopt.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Guess what I can be an existentialist and a materialist all at the same time.
Sartre (and other existentialists believed in free will. That is impossible with materialism.
Existentialists also talk about how consciousness (qualia) is what determines who we are. In other words consciousness determines what role (that I see myself as a Democrat,Republican, teacher,waiter....) I adopt.
Guess what you can be an existentialist and a determinist.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

How can one reconcile determinism with "existence precedes essence "?
Our essence (our personality, values etc) is (according to existentialism ) is determined by our consciousness (existence). Existentialism believes that we. are different then determined.
"Being in itself" is contrasted with "Being for itself".
"Being in itself" is the world of objects ( rocks, baseballs...etc)
We humans however are "being for itself" In other words free and undetermined.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:How can one reconcile determinism with "existence precedes essence "?
Our essence (our personality, values etc) is (according to existentialism ) is determined by our consciousness (existence). Existentialism believes that we. are different then determined.
"Being in itself" is contrasted with "Being for itself".
"Being in itself" is the world of objects ( rocks, baseballs...etc)
We humans however are "being for itself" In other words free and undetermined.
Existentialism is a mode of living which preferences the lived experience, beyond the suggestions of a mere objective reality. It is based on an awareness of self and a rejection of imposed norms and moral strictures that demand we follow the pressures of society.
Compatibilists are determinists which recognise that a deterministic universe is compatible with a sense that we are each of us deterministic agents able to express our will, live our own lives as best we can. It does not, and cannot deny that the will is determined by all antecedent factors, and the expression of that will is best achieved for the individual who follows a path determined by his own existence and not lived vicariously for others about him.
Our continual dissatisfaction indicates that we are driven through our lives Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung, deterministic but not determined. That is determined by the conditions of the world, how we represent it and by the self, as a fully functioning agent.
We act as we will, but we may not will as we will to borrow from Schopenhauer.
Last edited by Hobbes' Choice on Thu May 07, 2015 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ginkgo
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote:
Ginkgo wrote: Just so there is no confusion. Qualia in terms of experience is not of the same type of experience we find wen we talk about empiricism. Two different meanings or understanding are required .One type for materialists/physicalists and the other type for proponents of qualia.
How can we have sensory data if we believe that we have no feelings ( the subjective experience of green, volume etc).


I am beginning to see you think that when people such as Chalmers and Searle talk about "experience", they are talking about empiricism based on experience. Not really the case. When Chalmers and Searle talk about experience, they are talking about, "What it is like experience", not empirical experience. Empiricism is aposteriori knowledge based on observation, it is not introspective knowledge of the type we find when discussing qualia. Two different things.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/dpitt/whatsit.pdf
"The symbol grounding problem is related to the problem of how words (symbols) get their meanings, and hence to the problem of what meaning itself really is. The problem of meaning is in turn related to the problem of consciousness, or how it is that mental states are meaningful. According to a widely held theory of cognition called "computationalism," cognition (i.e., thinking) is just a form of computation. But computation in turn is just formal symbol manipulation: symbols are manipulated according to rules that are based on the symbols' shapes, not their meanings. How are those symbols (e.g., the words in our heads) connected to the things they refer to? It cannot be through the mediation of an external interpreter's head, because that would lead to an infinite regress, just as looking up the meanings of words in a (unilingual) dictionary of a language that one does not understand would lead to an infinite regress. The symbols in an autonomous hybrid symbolic+sensorimotor system—a Turing-scale robot consisting of both a symbol system and a sensorimotor system that reliably connects its internal symbols to the external objects they refer to, so it can interact with them Turing-indistinguishably from the way a person does—would be grounded. But whether its symbols would have meaning rather than just grounding is something that even the robotic Turing test—hence cognitive science itself—cannot determine, or explain."
FROM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_grounding_problem
Also see chapter 5 of
http://sjmse-library.sch.ng/E-Books%20P ... 0MEAN_.pdf
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

" it is not introspective knowledge of the type we find when discussing qualia. Two different things."
Ginko
When I look at a scientific reading ( lets say 28476296) that is a quale. I experience the physical signifier * 28476296. There can be no 2nd or 3rd person narrative without a first person narrative.
* http://changingminds.org/explanations/c ... nified.htm
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote:" it is not introspective knowledge of the type we find when discussing qualia. Two different things."
Ginko
When I look at a scientific reading ( lets say 28476296) that is a quale. I experience the physical signifier * 28476296. There can be no 2nd or 3rd person narrative without a first person narrative.
* http://changingminds.org/explanations/c ... nified.htm
How about we approach this form a different angle? Can you give me an outline of how you are going to divide mental states into those states that have qualia and those that don't?
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