What are concepts according to materialism?

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raw_thought
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

I am sure you can walk and chew gum at the same time also. However, one cannot be an atheist that believes in God. Similarly, one can not be a materialist (one that believes that only things that can be physically quantified are real) and believe in qualia. Qualia by definition are incapable of being physically quantified.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

I suppose you will mention epiphenomonalists. I strongly disagree with Dennett. However, he is at least somewhat consistent with his beliefs as opposed to epiphenomonologists.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:I am sure you can walk and chew gum at the same time also. However, one cannot be an atheist that believes in God. Similarly, one can not be a materialist (one that believes that only things that can be physically quantified are real) and believe in qualia. Qualia by definition are incapable of being physically quantified.
I think materialism is par excellence method of figuring out the world.
But when I want to sift through the data I have to realise that as a materialist I have to dismiss the subjective effects of perception, and experience, and figure out ways to calibrate objective data.
I can't do that if I ignore the truth that my perception is made up of qualia.
All the best materialists know about and accept that their perceptual apprehension of the world around them is primarily subjective.
All the Empiricists knew that.
When I look at a red ball I know that my perception of red is possibly unique. I know that "red" is actually a kind of delusion. When I want to understand objective and verifiable materialist truths about the physical world I have to understand that colour is due to the stimulation of the retina by different wavelengths of light, and that in turn is due to the the absorption of the other wavelength by the "red" object I am looking at.

Fact is that Qualia is a concept designed by materialists, seeking to understand the limits and possible misdirections of perception.
The idea of Qualia is a useful tool in the materialists kit.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Ok, continue to believe that materialists (like Dennett etc) believe in qualia.
To believe in qualia does not mean that the quale is an accurate representation of reality. It means that one can experience something. One can experience a hallucination. That is a quale that is not a representation of objective reality.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Qualia is a tool in the materialist's tool kit?????? I admire your outrageous spunk. But get real!
Qualia is a concept designed by materialists?????? Tell that to Dennett or the Churchlands!
surreptitious57
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by surreptitious57 »

If I am observing the image of a triangle then it is objectively real. Although triangles themselves are not
real as such as they are geometrical shapes. Geometry is a branch of mathematics and mathematics is an
abstraction. But the page on which the triangle is depicted is real and the lines which make it up are real
also. And so while triangles themselves may not be real per se representations of them most certainly are
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

It is subjective because you are the only one that sees it. I do not disagree that there is the concept triangle. I am talking about the particular triangle that I am visualizing. I am not talking about the universal "triangle".
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:Ok, continue to believe that materialists (like Dennett etc) believe in qualia.
To believe in qualia does not mean that the quale is an accurate representation of reality. It means that one can experience something. One can experience a hallucination. That is a quale that is not a representation of objective reality.

Duh. I did not mention Dennett. Dennett is a fruit cake.
Your second sentence is what I told you already.

We only have our experience, and that is our only access to the material world. If you don't understand how perception and experience works you are a piss poor materialist.

It's like you are incapable of reading what I write.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

raw_thought wrote:Qualia is a tool in the materialist's tool kit?????? I admire your outrageous spunk. But get real!
Qualia is a concept designed by materialists?????? Tell that to Dennett or the Churchlands!
We ALL of us experience the world subjectively.Like it or not - that's all we have.
Accepting the existence of qualia is not a bar to being a materialist.
Cyclists can also learn how to drive cars.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

surreptitious57 wrote:If I am observing the image of a triangle then it is objectively real. e
You don't know the meaning of either "objective" OR "real".

Next....
surreptitious57
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by surreptitious57 »

surreptitious57 wrote:
If I am observing the image of a triangle then it is objectively real
The image itself is objectively real but the interpretation of it is subjectively real
For any interpretation is subjective by default even if it is just simple observance
Because it is impossible for any two to have just one identical frame of reference
Ginkgo
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote:Qualia is pure empirical data. Materialists rely on sophisticated speculation. Materialists are actually the ones that put empirical knowledge in the back seat.
Materialists concentrate on abstractions (concepts). Whereas a believer in qualia deals directly with reality as it is experienced.
Raw thought, you have this back to front. Materialists don't rely on abstractions because materialism is a form of physicalism. In fact, the terms can be used interchangeably in most instances. Materialists rely on the same type of empirical data as physicalists. Qualia has been rejected by science because it is distinctive dualistic. Qualia cannot have a scientific basis because it is non-reduicable and therefore, non-physical. This is THE defining feature of qualia. Ironically, qualia is the concept, not materialism.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
raw_thought wrote:Ok, continue to believe that materialists (like Dennett etc) believe in qualia.
To believe in qualia does not mean that the quale is an accurate representation of reality. It means that one can experience something. One can experience a hallucination. That is a quale that is not a representation of objective reality.

Duh. I did not mention Dennett. Dennett is a fruit cake.
Your second sentence is what I told you already.

We only have our experience, and that is our only access to the material world. If you don't understand how perception and experience works you are a piss poor materialist.

It's like you are incapable of reading what I write.
So you are not a materialist!! You just dont know it. You are saying that we onky know about matter thru qualia.
Please, do some research. It is common knowledge that materialists reject the idea of qualia.
Similarly, you can call yourself an atheist that believes in God. That is equally as silly.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by raw_thought »

Yes, materialists rely on empirical data and empirical data is an example of qualia! When I read a scientific instrument I am experiencing a quale. No one can look into my brain and see the number 38716253.
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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?

Post by Ginkgo »

raw_thought wrote: So you are not a materialist!! You just dont know it. You are saying that we onky know about matter thru qualia.
Please, do some research. It is common knowledge that materialists reject the idea of qualia.
Similarly, you can call yourself an atheist that believes in God. That is equally as silly.
Materialism, physicalism and neuro-science rejects qualia because it is inherently dualistic. Materialism in this respect is consistent in terms of the scientific method. I get the impression you see materialism as divorced from science. Is this correct?
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