Knowing how versus Knowing that

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
There is no high or low, only different. To attribute high or low, is always self serving.

So 'the' asteroid is coming, you can either sit there and play a symphony for it's arrival, requiem, of course, or you can grab your bicycle and hit the road in the opposite direction?

To rank ones abilities, purely mental masturbation of meaninglessness!
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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
There is no high or low, only different. To attribute high or low, is always self serving.

So 'the' asteroid is coming, you can either sit there and play a symphony for it's arrival, requiem, of course, or you can grab your bicycle and hit the road in the opposite direction?

To rank ones abilities, purely mental masturbation of meaninglessness!
I take your point but reject it. I'm not ranking, but recognising learning and progress.

When a person first plays the piano his or her skill is low, and it requires effort and practice to master it. As progress is made the skill becomes higher, and it is also true to say that not all persons are bale to achieve a level of excellence beyond a certain point.
To say a monkey plays a piano 'differently' but not at a lower level than Daniel Barenboim is hideously stupid, and denies DB's life's work.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.
Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.
There is no high or low, only different. To attribute high or low, is always self serving.

So 'the' asteroid is coming, you can either sit there and play a symphony for it's arrival, requiem, of course, or you can grab your bicycle and hit the road in the opposite direction?

To rank ones abilities, purely mental masturbation of meaninglessness!
I take your point but reject it. I'm not ranking, but recognising learning and progress.
I hope you don't mind my parallel edit


When a person first plays the piano his or her skill is low,
When a person first tries to play the piano, there is no ability,
and it requires effort and practice to master it.
it shall require much effort and practice if one really cares to master it
As progress is made the skill becomes higher,
If one really cares to master it, their ability increases,
and it is also true to say that not all persons are bale to achieve a level of excellence beyond a certain point.
but it's always true that some want it more than others, that only the ones that truly want it shall achieve the excellence, that others have labeled as such.

To say a monkey plays a piano 'differently' but not at a lower level than Daniel Barenboim is hideously stupid, and denies DB's life's work.
I'm not sure, when you say, "at a lower level," do you mean amplitude? ;) Do you have a hard-on for DB? How important should DB's life's work be?

I would say that what is definitely hideously ignorant (not stupid), from a philosophical point of view at least, is for one to not understand that what constitutes lower or higher level, as you seem to mean it, is ambiguous and arbitrary, or in other words, "subjective," At least according to my Art History Professor at University!
An extraterrestrial might not get it, let alone be able to actually hear it. And we might feel the same on his planet. So what does that actually mean, philosophically?

Differences!
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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.
Lev Muishkin wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: There is no high or low, only different. To attribute high or low, is always self serving.

So 'the' asteroid is coming, you can either sit there and play a symphony for it's arrival, requiem, of course, or you can grab your bicycle and hit the road in the opposite direction?

To rank ones abilities, purely mental masturbation of meaninglessness!
I take your point but reject it. I'm not ranking, but recognising learning and progress.
I hope you don't mind my parallel edit


When a person first plays the piano his or her skill is low,
When a person first tries to play the piano, there is no ability,
and it requires effort and practice to master it.
it shall require much effort and practice if one really cares to master it
As progress is made the skill becomes higher,
If one really cares to master it, their ability increases,
and it is also true to say that not all persons are bale to achieve a level of excellence beyond a certain point.
but it's always true that some want it more than others, that only the ones that truly want it shall achieve the excellence, that others have labeled as such.

To say a monkey plays a piano 'differently' but not at a lower level than Daniel Barenboim is hideously stupid, and denies DB's life's work.
I'm not sure, when you say, "at a lower level," do you mean amplitude? ;) Do you have a hard-on for DB? How important should DB's life's work be?

I would say that what is definitely hideously ignorant (not stupid), from a philosophical point of view at least, is for one to not understand that what constitutes lower or higher level, as you seem to mean it, is ambiguous and arbitrary, or in other words, "subjective," At least according to my Art History Professor at University!
An extraterrestrial might not get it, let alone be able to actually hear it. And we might feel the same on his planet. So what does that actually mean, philosophically?


Differences!
High level skill is different than a low level skill.
More ability is a higher level than lower ability; yes a difference of LEVEL.
Why not try 'Angry Birds"? - your favourite game. Level One is easy, and level Two is harder.
If I were to call you a fucking idiot. That means that your ability to think is at a lower level than mine.
Do you remember at school when you were in remedial class, and they told you and the other drongos that your appreciation of maths, and English was "different" from the kids in the top set; those that managed to graduate with honours. Remember? Yes, well when they told you, that you were "different", that was just a polite way of saying you were stupid. Ahh, remember? Think hard. Yes, they called you 'special". Do you remember?
"Special" is different, is less able. Lower achievement; stupid.
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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgKy5E9i_RU

What SOB thinks is no better than ...

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=4C3TIr2bBo0

this.

Yeah it's fucking "different."

One shows a lower level of skill, ability and learning than the other which shows a higher level of skill, ability and learning .
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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

Blaggard
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Blaggard »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIMY_niu-oc

AHAAAAAA!

Christ Humans are dumb.

"Kill all humans!"

Bender Bending Rodriguez.

"I am NOT! Napoleon!"

Your mum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCSRq8dAqPc

::)

Clucking bell it's Je suis appelle Napoleon, en Francais! ;)

Conjugation anyone. ;)

If I have to read one more dumb I am right and you are wrong post from someone with NPD I will kill myself, or Napoleon at least. :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaV-6qerkqI

"The Spy Who Loved Me."

;;P
thedoc
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by thedoc »

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.

LV, do you play a musical instrument? and if so, what do you play, instrument and pieces?
thedoc
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by thedoc »

Blaggard wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIMY_niu-oc
AHAAAAAA!
Christ Humans are dumb.
He looked so fake, his jacket had shoulders wider than his, thankyou for shoulder pads, big ones.
Last edited by thedoc on Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
thedoc
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by thedoc »

Blaggard wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaV-6qerkqI
"The Spy Who Loved Me."
;;P

I like Carly Simon, I don't watch the Simpsons.
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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Lev Muishkin »

thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
Wyman wrote:Unconscious motor responses don't seem to require any higher level cognitive abilities.

That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.

LV, do you play a musical instrument? and if so, what do you play, instrument and pieces?
In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Lev Muishkin wrote:High level skill is different than a low level skill.
More ability is a higher level than lower ability; yes a difference of LEVEL.
Why not try 'Angry Birds"? - your favourite game. Level One is easy, and level Two is harder.
If I were to call you a fucking idiot. That means that your ability to think is at a lower level than mine.
Do you remember at school when you were in remedial class, and they told you and the other drongos that your appreciation of maths, and English was "different" from the kids in the top set; those that managed to graduate with honours. Remember? Yes, well when they told you, that you were "different", that was just a polite way of saying you were stupid. Ahh, remember? Think hard. Yes, they called you 'special". Do you remember?
"Special" is different, is less able. Lower achievement; stupid.
I did not mean to hit you so philosophically hard. I'm sorry! ;)

What do you need me to explain?

That levels are just figments of your imagination, how you cope, how you justify your existence?


No one's better or worse than anyone!

What does that mean?

It means that everyone has the exact same potential!!!!

'That some shall seek and find their life's meaning, and some shall turn their heads the other way!'

It's a choice one makes along the way, born of ignorance, or not.

Lucky for you: 'Yes there are ever multiple paths you can go down, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road your on.'



ART IS IN FACT SUBJECTIVE!
thedoc
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by thedoc »

Lev Muishkin wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:]


That is not the case with examples of excellence. Drumming and piano playing require unconscious viceral knowledge of the instruments; the score, and a deep emotional commitment to the music.
People without high level cognition are not capable of excellence in these fields.

LV, do you play a musical instrument? and if so, what do you play, instrument and pieces?
In my time I've tried the violin, bass guitar and piano. But I was always best on the drumkit.
By music or ear, or both? I play the piano but I'm a slave to the music, and haven't been able to play by ear, yet.
Ginkgo
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Re: Knowing how versus Knowing that

Post by Ginkgo »


I think that is me playing the piano. I remember being asked by someone if I could play that again in A-flat. I told them I would rather stay where I am and play it.
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