What is wise?

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10532
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:35 pm

Blaggard wrote:Gone off the deep end my ass. Philosophers claim absolutes now just as religious people do, it is just so because I say so. Is that at all anything to do with philosophy, look at uk vacilating wildly without providing a single concrete proof that anything is absolute, and you lap it up, because like most philosophers you are taught the same tired gibberish by the same tired old men.
Ones you've obviously not bothered to read but think yourself well qualified to yak about?
UK creaks with his old mind set, he doesn't need to learn anything about philosophy he is just philosophy arch and lord.
Whatever lets you sleep safely.
His arrogance though aside, just says to me that he is too lazy to really actually answer questions or do any real philosophy because he just knows all the answers;
I answered your questions, you just don't like the answers.

You are asking for a deductive proof of the first principle of Logic, can't be done. What can be done is to show how you cannot reason without it. How existence cannot be without it and how it arises exactly because there is existence.

What is 'real' philosophy to you then?

So once more, show me a thing that can be and not be? Tell me how existence can be and not be? Then I'll bow down to a 'real' philosopher. Until then I'll just think of you as short on understanding what reason, logic and existence are.
how many books of philosophy have you had independently published, how have you advanced philsophy in your tired old crypt? How many novel ideas about anything have you expounded that didn't come straight from the mouths of better men than you UK:
:lol: One might think the same thing would apply to you?

Still, one so far, but given the nature of Philosophy I doubt it but just haven't found it yet, and that is that Descartes should have also thought 'But I'm thinking in a language? Therefore there must be at least one other.'
one must ask can you even think for yourself any more?.
Always have been able to but the study of Philosophy has shown me that whilst my thoughts were original to me they were not unique.
It's disheartening to think there are absolutes anywhere be it in science or philosophy, but you have found them, and what are they based on, your fickle and sub standard subjectivity.
No, they are based upon there being things and states of affairs. If you say there are no things or states of affairs then I think you in a real contradiction.
Overarching reality: absolute truth and absolute reality, you would have to prove any reality first, and you can't and you never have, nor jhas anyone ever and you know it. What is worse you know it only to well but you do like to deny it.
You are in a nonsensical contradiction, can you even understand why?
You have to study philosophy to know anything about it, if you haven't read every dense subjective tome you will not understand why there is absolute truth, and you never will. Get bent, you are just using sophistry to justify nothing at all and no proofs. If your masters say jump you say how high.
Not another bore about how education is a plot, brain-washing, etc, etc. All I've ever said is that those who have an opinion about what a philosopher has said without reading said philosopher are yakking about about something others have said and apparently just jumping to those masters call?
You're boring trite and far to sure of yourselves, you are becoming religious or worse religion in your convictions. Why is philosophy not studied so much any more, perhaps because those who really create anything are tired of talking to hidebound x must be why plebs 'cause some fucking dead guy said so, and who can argue with the dead...
And yet you can give me no example that contradicts what I say but you still insist that it is not true? Try making one thought of something that can exist and not exist?

Take a look around, Philosophy is becoming a subject once more. Why? Because the natural philosophers cannot explain their answers to the plebs satisfaction and philosophy is what's needed to bridge the gap. You'd better worry as if it isn't taken up the actually religious will be taking center-stage and you will experience what a truly subjective mind-set is with respect to natural philosophy.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10532
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:50 pm

Blaggard wrote:Why do you ignore reality and claim absolutely that all reason is correct just because of axioms you can never prove?
Because they are the axioms of reason and existence!!

I do not claim that all reason is correct, I claim that the logical tautologies are absolutely true because in reality they are.

You say I ignore reality but you deny that it exists with the same breath that confirms it, how can you do this?
Who died and made you god all of a sudden? You know all of reality all of the universe and how everything works and ever will enough to say that subjectively something any mind can know absolutely the truth.
I do not say this, I say that Logic gives one the bounds of existence and reason. It shows what is necessarily true, what is contingently true and what is contradictorily impossible with respect to truth. I do not say 'the truth' but truth.
You must be either ignorant or just plain lazy. What is the point of philosophy any more since all the answers are self evident, because they are absolute.
You are adding this 'all' so that you can yak about whatever strawman it is that you think you are conversing with.
And stop for fucks sake banging out existence, and I don't like the answers you gave, you mushroom in a dark cave, it's not what it was ever about. I don't like the fact that you have decided reality is absolute on no more basis than your own opinion, stop whining and show me how you can in no uncertain terms say reality is fixed like a rock by your unshakeable knowledge of everything? Or don't your choice. Damned if I care to listen to more specious bs. These truths by my faith and religion I hold to be absolutely true. Really what a pointless and uninformed existence you must lead from your cave.
See how you parrot the thoughts from philosophy thinking them your own?

It's exactly about what you were yakking about. You denied that there were any absolute truths and I gave you some. Still waiting for you to show me how they are untrue other than some waffle about subjectivity. Logic is objective as it arises from there being things and states of affairs.
Uk you are a boring and staid individual who exists to regurgitate other peoples ideas, and no more. If you ever had an original thought anywhere you have yet to show it on this forum. I would work on it if I was you
:lol: Pots and glasshouses I think.

You're not me, I'm not here to amuse you and I care little for the opinion of one who spouts their opinions upon things they haven't bothered to read.

Please show some will and adhere to your 'threat' of ignoring me this time. Do not let your egotistical insecurities get the better of you again.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

reasonvemotion
Posts: 1649
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by reasonvemotion » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:59 pm

How can one distinguish a true judgement from a false one. There cannot be one without the other.

surreptitious57
Posts: 1493
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:07 pm

Any mathematical equation is absolutely true by definition because mathematics is a deductive discipline which uses proof
to validate its conclusions. What makes it absolute is that it is not a human discipline as such so it cannot be compromised
by subjective interpretation for it was discovered not invented. The laws of physics are codified in mathematical language
and both have existed for as long as the Universe which may be forever. Though they only apply to this particular one and
not any others. But mathematics transcends Universes for it is absolute. The symbols may vary but the discipline does not

User avatar
GreatandWiseTrixie
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: What is wise?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:17 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:How can one distinguish a true judgement from a false one. There cannot be one without the other.
When 1+1 goes through the processes of the mind...it references all instances of the circumstance (What it has been taught, how it feels, pictures of apples...)

A chemical is released, pathways go to the library of deemed Truths, and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt...True...

If a brain where to go to a school of Truths, exposed to no lies its whole life...
All would be true, the box of candy on the ground, the floor, the water...All truths...
And a lie...would be a feeling...a short circuit...something that does not connect to the library of Truths...
It would feel...wrong...and would not match with the already established patterns...and Truths...
Like how telling a child 2+2=3 when it's whole life, it has seen patterns of 2+2=4...and only 4...

Gee
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:22 am
Location: Michigan, US

Re: What is wise?

Post by Gee » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:48 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:How can one distinguish a true judgement from a false one. There cannot be one without the other.
When 1+1 goes through the processes of the mind...it references all instances of the circumstance (What it has been taught, how it feels, pictures of apples...)

A chemical is released, pathways go to the library of deemed Truths, and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt...True...

If a brain where to go to a school of Truths, exposed to no lies its whole life...
All would be true, the box of candy on the ground, the floor, the water...All truths...
And a lie...would be a feeling...a short circuit...something that does not connect to the library of Truths...
It would feel...wrong...and would not match with the already established patterns...and Truths...
Like how telling a child 2+2=3 when it's whole life, it has seen patterns of 2+2=4...and only 4...
Trixie;

The above quote may be the most nonsensical thing that I have ever read. You are mixing the "brain", the "mind", and the "library of deemed Truths" with rationality and logic. I am not going to even try to pick the quote apart, but would like to suggest one thing for you to consider: When discussing logic and rationality, you are talking about the rational conscious aspect of mind -- the part that psychology calls the Ego. The interesting thing here is that the rational mind, the Ego, is the ONLY part of mind that knows how to lie. It may actually be the only thing on the planet that can lie, so expecting truth out of logic and rationalization is a tad irrational. (chuckle)

What the hell is the "library of deemed Truths"?

Gee

Arising;
Arising wrote:Something cannot exist and not exist.

Something can either exist or not exist.
I do not know a great deal about science, so I may be wrong, but isn't this just what the double-slit experiment proved? That something can exist and not exist?

Gee

Blaggard;

As you rightly noted truth is relative to perspective. It is also relative to time. I can type, "I am typing this statement right now." and it is true, or it was when I was typing that statement, but it is no longer true. I like to think of truth as philosophy's own special relativity, as truth is relative.

Regarding absolute truth -- it does not exist. In order for a truth to be absolute, it would have to be true from all perspectives, and it would have to stay true no matter the time of day or the time of year. It would have to be static. What do we call a static truth? We call it a fact.

So using the words "absolute truth" are at best a misnomer and at worst an utter fraud pretending to be more than it is. Absolute truth means simple fact. Nothing extraordinary here.

Gee

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10532
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:59 pm

Gee wrote:I do not know a great deal about science, so I may be wrong, but isn't this just what the double-slit experiment proved? That something can exist and not exist?
No, it proves that the universe is stranger than we'd thought but none of those photons can exist and not exist.

Apparently according to Feynman it proves that light takes all available paths and the shortest time one wins out whilst the rest cancel out.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10532
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:38 pm

Gee wrote:As you rightly noted truth is relative to perspective. It is also relative to time. I can type, "I am typing this statement right now." and it is true, or it was when I was typing that statement, but it is no longer true. I like to think of truth as philosophy's own special relativity, as truth is relative.
Not with respect to the logical tautologies and contradictions it isn't.
Regarding absolute truth -- it does not exist. In order for a truth to be absolute, it would have to be true from all perspectives, and it would have to stay true no matter the time of day or the time of year. It would have to be static. What do we call a static truth? We call it a fact.
Facts are subject to change, logical truths are not.
So using the words "absolute truth" are at best a misnomer and at worst an utter fraud pretending to be more than it is. Absolute truth means simple fact. Nothing extraordinary here.
Not so, absolute truth means something that is immutable and the laws of PL logic with respect to reason and existence are just that.

Surprised no-one has mentioned Intuitionistic logic to me?
Last edited by Arising_uk on Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 2747
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: too close

Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:59 pm

"What is wise?"

If you know the cat is gonna shit on the sofa, keeping the cat offa the sofa is wise.

If you know your kid will become a frenzied juggernaut when he has too much sugar, limiting his sugar intake is wise.

If you know a particular parking lot is lousy with nails, keeping your car out of that parking lot is wise.

Wisdom is mostly the happy coming together of experience and a native capacity to learn from experience...but then, what do I know? My cat shits on the sofa, my kid bounces offa the walls, and I have a flat... ;)

User avatar
GreatandWiseTrixie
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: What is wise?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:37 pm

Gee wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:How can one distinguish a true judgement from a false one. There cannot be one without the other.
When 1+1 goes through the processes of the mind...it references all instances of the circumstance (What it has been taught, how it feels, pictures of apples...)

A chemical is released, pathways go to the library of deemed Truths, and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt...True...

If a brain where to go to a school of Truths, exposed to no lies its whole life...
All would be true, the box of candy on the ground, the floor, the water...All truths...
And a lie...would be a feeling...a short circuit...something that does not connect to the library of Truths...
It would feel...wrong...and would not match with the already established patterns...and Truths...
Like how telling a child 2+2=3 when it's whole life, it has seen patterns of 2+2=4...and only 4...
Trixie;

The above quote may be the most nonsensical thing that I have ever read. You are mixing the "brain", the "mind", and the "library of deemed Truths" with rationality and logic. I am not going to even try to pick the quote apart, but would like to suggest one thing for you to consider: When discussing logic and rationality, you are talking about the rational conscious aspect of mind -- the part that psychology calls the Ego. The interesting thing here is that the rational mind, the Ego, is the ONLY part of mind that knows how to lie. It may actually be the only thing on the planet that can lie, so expecting truth out of logic and rationalization is a tad irrational. (chuckle)

What the hell is the "library of deemed Truths"?
Seeing as how the premise of your argument consists of something you don't understand...
Image
Memory banks of the mind. Thought it was obvious...Sigh. Why do I even bother.

Beauty
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: What is wise?

Post by Beauty » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:11 am

I think wisdom means that we don't speak our mind but be discreet as not to hurt someone, or protect ourselves, or protect another, or protect a minor, or protect a situation, business, life, circumstance, idea, work, happiness.........the world and life.

Now, I sincerely believe in speaking my mind, so I am not a very wise person. A lie is very difficult for me to speak, so I find it difficult to be wise. I guess you just trust your heart, follow your heart and do what seems appropriate - speak your mind or not. In following our heart, we end up doing the right thing actually, so then that is the best route to take in life. So the question is not should you be wise or not, the question is should you be right or not, and the answer is that we should be right. Now it is questionable whether being right was wise or not, but wisdom is not the important thing, being right is the important thing, and this does not mean that we have excluded wisdom out for we haven't, neither have we included it. In a given situation, doing the right thing, we may have been wise, we may not have been wise, it is alright. I think this is what you really wanted to know, when you ask, "What is wise?"

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: What is wise?

Post by Walker » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:17 am

Beauty wrote:A lie is very difficult for me to speak, so I find it difficult to be wise.
I don't get it.

Are you saying that a good liar is wise?

Beauty
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: What is wise?

Post by Beauty » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:20 am

Walker wrote:
Beauty wrote:A lie is very difficult for me to speak, so I find it difficult to be wise.
I don't get it.

Are you saying that a good liar is wise?
No, I am not saying anything like that, only that since I find it difficult to lie, so I cannot choose to be discreet but am direct to the point of speaking truth. However, since you did not quote my full post, I am also saying that we must follow our heart, for then the right thing is done in life, and walking the right way, we reach our destination, which we like, and so we are happy. So bottom line is - right way is always the best. Right may mean not being wise(discreet) but direct in one scenario, yet in another scenario we may be discreet and not direct. Always follow your heart is what I am saying. Is that the wise thing to do, no, but it is the right thing to do. Right makes us all winners! God guides us in the right way, and God is always right.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests