Can virtue be taught?

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reasonvemotion
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Can virtue be taught?

Post by reasonvemotion »

Plato does suggest the idea that virtue exists from birth. To some extent, this is true, some people seem to be born with a large capacity for virtue such as compassion, others seem to have little or no moral conscience, (which would make virtue very difficult to have in that situation).

This would not mean virtue cannot be learned, only that its basic knowledge is inborn. One can be "instructed" in virtues but fail to apply them, or want to apply them. Also there is the converse: people are capable of refining their views of virtue, that people become more virtuous by thoughtful practice and it also does happen where a person's view of how to act changes dramatically over time.

For example, experience can change a person's sense of virtue. Someone who is boastful or exaggerates his or her capabilities may be confronted with others who do the same, this can lead to inner contemplation on how annoying the tendency is.

Plato's question could be asked differently, instead of asking whether virtue can be taught, maybe if asked whether virtue can be learned would the answer be different.
Clinias
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by Clinias »

First, I would like for you to tell me what the Greek word is for "virtue" because then it would tell you if it can be taught or not.

Second, please define what "virtue" is. I'm curious what you think it means. Many people don't know the meaning of it. Do you know the meaning of it.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by reasonvemotion »

Virtue (Latin: virtus, Ancient Greek: ἀρετή "arete") is moral excellence. A virtue is a positive trait or quality deemed to be morally good and thus is valued as a foundation of principle and good moral being. Personal virtues are characteristics valued as promoting collective and individual greatness.

Individual virtues can be grouped into one of four categories of values:

Ethics (virtue - vice, good - evil, moral - immoral - amoral, right - wrong)
Aesthetics (unbalanced, pleasing)
Doctrinal (political, ideological, religious or social beliefs and values)
Innate/inborn

Virtue, sword in hand, with her foot on the prostrate form of Tyranny on the Great Seal of Virginia.The four classic Western Cardinal virtues are:

temperance: σωφροσύνη (sōphrosynē)
prudence: φρόνησις (phronēsis)
courage: ἀνδρεία (andreia)
justice: δικαιοσύνη (dikaiosynē)
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

So the name Andrew means the courageous one ? Interesting.

I try to teach myself virtues, for exemple temperance.
I remind myself "C´est l´acharnement qui me nuit." in order to become calm.

One can overdo a virtue. If I overdo prudence I become .... a prude ???? :D
Clinias
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by Clinias »

Yes, the standard reply.

"Arete" in Greek history was first applied to animals. It just means "excellence". Did a horse, a cow, a dog, have "Arete"? Was it perfect, was the question asked. The "Arete" of a thing proved its value; it was free of imperfections. Naturally, this form of "Arete", one is born with.

Did Arete in this archaic meaning have "moral" meaning? no. Just physical meaning. Then, the word lent itself to other things. Arete is not confined to "morality" but to the Total person. The Greeks thought holistically. Arete is looking at the totality of the person, his physical fitness, his bodily looks, his spirit, his mental characteristics, and his behavior. There is no Arete unless the whole has arete.

There is also something missing from your description of Arete/Virtue. What are the first three letters of the word "virtue"? V-I-R. What is that?

That is the clue to what Virtue means. "V-I-R", "vir" is the Latin for "man". Virtus means actually, "the excellencies of a man", or "to be a man". It really doesn't have to do with "morality". Manliness is not about "moral" at all. It is a character. It is the essence of being a man.

"Andrea" is most often translated as "courage" but that is not the total meaning of "andrea".

No boy knows what it means to be a man. So what is necessary? Are boys born with manliness? maybe machismo, but not manliness.

Virtue is the cultured, or inculturated, habits of good behavior and practices. Virtue is Excellence of a thing where it takes nature and refines it.

So, I would think that Virtue is something one is both born with and trained into. It is a combination of things.
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

And yet we speak of a virtuous woman, don´t we ?

And in one of the languages I know you can call a woman who is good at practical jokes "a woman with eggs".

On the other hand, somewhere in the Republic Plato recommends to teach children poetry, music and such things in order to make them "gentle". Because without it they are coarse and primitive and savage.

That´s what being a gentleman should be all about.
Clinias
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by Clinias »

The Virtue of a woman and the Virtue of a man are different.

Is not the nature of a woman different from the nature of a man?

Yes.

Virtue is Excellence. That excellence is tied to the Nature of a thing. So as the natures of men and women are different, so are the virtues.

Prudence, self-control, are the same thing for both sexes. But a woman can not have "Andrea" as much as it conflicts with Feminity. Masculinity must attach to a man, while as feminity must attach to the woman. The values here are a little bit different. Yes, sometimes a woman must/can display courage, but in her total form/behavoir, she must exhibit the excellencies of being a female.

As St. Paul said, "Women are to be submissive". Submissiveness is a female trait. It is part of feminity.

I tried to have a Catholic School teach virtue. It won't nowhere. When they learned that Virtue is gender specific---training of virtue went out the window.

We no longer live in Western Civilization but under Marxist Civilization. What is important to Marxism is equality, equality of the sexes, i.e. Unisexism. Virtue has no place in Marxism. Britain, America, all of Europe are now Marxist. You will not be teaching Virtue in any college or university. (There not only are all higher institutions of learning Marxist, but it is too late to teach Virtue. Training in Virtue starts around the age of 5. Virtue is Habit. Habits start young. If Virtue is not started at a young age---it will never be grasped.)

As a man has Manliness, a woman should have Feminity. For women to have feminity is taboo. Now, women must be empowered, i.e. masculinized. Men are to be emasculated and women masculinized. That is the goal of Marxism. That is what we have today.
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

I beg to differ, with Clinias and with St. Paul.

Submissiveness is not virtue.
In St. Paul´s times slavery was common and taken for granted, also by the ancient Greek philosophers.
This does not mean that we cannot and should not overcome slavery.

A woman was created in God´s image. She has dignity and should preserve it. Being submissive is a sin and an outrage, for both men and women.

Pray and ask for enlightenment, Clinias. May God help you if I am unable to.
Clinias
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by Clinias »

Slavery is an institution and the Church has never condemned it nor will it.

Sir, St. Paul is an apostle. What you are doing is elevating your personal opinion over Scripture and the consistent teaching of the Church. Submissiveness is a Virtue for Women to have. God also said to the woman, that Man is her head, and that she will follow her husband. That is a command from God, implanted in nature.

No, Man was created from the Image of God, and woman was made from Man, so NO, woman is NOT the image of God! Sorry.
Duzek, you are NOT a Christian, don't tell me what Christianity is or is not. If you want to deny and refuse the authority of the Bible and the Church that is fine but don't attempt to use Christianity in prove your opinion.

Either be a Christian or be a deist, or an atheist, but you can't have it both ways. To use the "Image of God" is to make yourself into a Christian, but then say it negates St. Paul---well, that is laughable! What insane logic are you using? You are totally ILLOGICAL.
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

Which "Church" do you mean ?
New Apostolic ? Jehova´s Witnesses ? Mormons ?

Because I never heard anything about submissiveness of women in the Catholic Church in Poland, sorry.
And even less so in Germany. Neither in the Catholic Church nor in the Protestant ones (Lutheran or Methodist).

I say what my reason and my heart tells me is fair and right. My body is my temple said Saint Paul too.
And Saint Antonius recommended meditation of the heart to find out the good choices and the right answers.

The Church was wrong about the sun turning round the earth and they corrected their teachings and moved on.

I am not stoning you, no, if what you say is your true view and understanding of things and not an evil provocation and a desire to do mischief then go in peace and bother me no more.
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

I do not know what the Pope´s latest statements about the submissiveness of women are (if he bothered to make any), but if he says that women should submit then these teachings need to be corrected like the sun-earth teachings needed to be.

Fortunately, I live in times in which I do not need to fear to be burnt on a stake for expressing my honest views. Giordano Bruno and Galileo were less lucky. God bless them.
duszek
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by duszek »

When we went to a synagogue as guests (we = Catholics) and were allowed to attend the Friday service and women had to go upstairs on the gallery and men had to stay downstairs, a fellow Catholic man more or less in charge of the excursion gave me an apologetic glance which said more or less: do not make a fuss about it, please, we are only guests here, aren´t we ? I smiled back and moved upstairs.
The synagogue was pretty empty by the way, it was crowded by the Catholics on this particular Friday.
On the balcony not a single Jewish woman was present, only us visiting Catholics.

While listening to the prayers being performed downstairs I copied from the Prayers Book:

God thank you that you did not create me as a woman.

I knew about this prayer from the film "Kadosh" and just wanted to find it which I did.

The Prayer Book added as the version for women:

God thank you for creating me according to your will.
Clinias
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by Clinias »

1.1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
1 Peter 3:1
Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,

1 Peter 3:5
For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands,
All quotes taken from the New KJV.

As you can see the Bible clearly speaks of women being submissive. It is a Femine Trait.

Furthermore, this is in accordance with the Natural Law. Aristotle writes that "All things are either in Authority or in Subjection". This is throughout nature. Those things in "Subjection" have to be submissive towards those in Authority.

One has to be careful in the Catholic Church. Many Catholics and clergy have been infected with socialism and the atheistic so-called "Enlightenment". The Enlightenment teachings are from atheists. What St. Paul and St. Peter both write are the standard behavior of women. This was throughout the land in both Greek and Roman Antiquity.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by reasonvemotion »

Clinias
No, Man was created from the Image of God, and woman was made from Man, so NO, woman is NOT the image of God! Sorry.
Duzek, you are NOT a Christian, don't tell me what Christianity is or is not. If you want to deny and refuse the authority of the Bible and the Church that is fine but don't attempt to use Christianity in prove your opinion.
Incorrect. If, as you say, you read the scriptures you would already know Genesis 1.27

Genesis 1:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Genesis 1:27
Today's New International Version (TNIV)


27 So God created human beings in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.



unless, you have a reference to prove otherwise.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Can virtue be taught?

Post by reasonvemotion »

If I can steer away from the Scriptures for a moment and perhaps generalise, for both men and women.

I raise the question of virtue ethics and how they are created. Would it not be reasonable to suppose that there are character traits similar to that and each person differs in their virtue ethic simply because they differ in their character traits. This would explain how virtue is viewed, translated and acted upon. Some may view the outcome as good, others may not, It is an individual presumption.
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