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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:31 am 
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Jack,
If you wish to have an insight into where Heidegger, et al were coming from(in fact pretty much all of Europen and American Philosophy). You absolutely have to read Descartes: Discourse on Method and the Meditations.
a_uk


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:40 am 
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Arising_uk wrote:
Jack,
If you wish to have an insight into where Heidegger, et al were coming from(in fact pretty much all of Europen and American Philosophy). You absolutely have to read Descartes: Discourse on Method and the Meditations.
a_uk


Thanks Arising, I will check it out the next time I go to the library.

Jack


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:53 am 
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Jack wrote:
Thanks Arising, I will check it out the next time I go to the library.

My pleasure and it also fits my criteria of being a great philosophical book, i.e. a good read and it's short. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:40 pm 
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Zen is a most intimate personal experience of Being.



The basic idea of Zen is to come in touch with the inner workings of our being, and to do this in the most di­rect way possible, without resorting to anything external or superadded. Therefore, anything that has the semblance of an external authority is rejected by Zen. Absolute faith is placed in a man's own inner being. For whatever authority there is in Zen, all comes from within. This is true in the strictest sense of the word. Even the reasoning faculty is not considered final or absolute. On the contrary, it hinders the mind from coming into the directest communication with itself. The intellect ac­complishes its mission when it works as an intermediary, and Zen has nothing to do with an intermediary except when it desires to communicate itself to others. For this reason all the scriptures are merely tentative and provisory; there is in them no finality. The central fact of life as it is lived is what Zen aims to grasp, and this in the most direct and most vital manner. Zen professes itself to be the spirit of Buddhism, but in fact it is the spirit of all religions and philosophies. When Zen is thor­oughly understood, absolute peace of mind is attained, and a man lives as he ought to live. What more may we hope?


An introduction to Zen Buddhism by D. T. Suzuki

Foreword by Carl Jung


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Hello bullwinkle,

fishing for compliments, aren´t we ? :D

Your answers have been very good again and I will think about them over the week-end.

For the time being just a couple of remarks from my part:

1. Do I want to change ? I want to improve and I hope that I do all the time because I am open to feedback and criticism.
If some nasty pattern of behaviour shows up I struggle with it until I find an acceptable solution. Some time ago - one or two weeks ago - I solved a difficult problem by .... putting on a layer of false friendliness (I call it to be friendly in a sickening way).

2. I am not sure about Scotland but people from England are world-famous for being very polite. If you look at them closely they are acting all the time. They are never authentic.
I used to believe in being authentic and honest until I discovered that I was a hopeless fool.
You waste your energy if you are honest toward a false person.
Now I respond to falseness by being false myself and strike a balance that way.
I am still honest and authentic towards people I care for and who deserve it.

Have a nice week-end.
I will be back on Monday.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:47 am 
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bullwinkle wrote:
Hi Jack,

Jack wrote:
The tree of Man's slavery to materialism has it's roots firmly established in the soil of his materialistic experience of his self.

Do you think that Descartes and the subject/object distinction is important here?



Hi Bullwinkle,

In Genesis Man is warned by GOD not to eat from the tree of good and bad because he will surely die if he does.The reason I mention this is that it was at that exact moment when Adam ate this fruit that the subject / object dualism was born. It was at that exact moment that Man found his self alienated from his authentic being. It was at that moment that Man chose having over being. Gabriel Marcel, Erich Fromm and many others have said that having and being are the two choices or modes that man has the option of living by The having mode is what most men live under. The problem is that the having orientation blinds man's mind from experiencing being in wonder, appreciation and radical amazement. In other words the possible experience of being as gift dies in man.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Hi Jack,

Jack wrote:
I have never read any of Descartes works but I am aware of his "I think therefore I am" statement. Did he mean that he had self awareness because he was a thinking being? Or did he mean that because he was a thinking being', he was able to have input into his identity or did he mean that his thinking was his being?

Well, I'm no expert on Descartes but I thought that the cogito was Descartes observation that he couldn't doubt his own existance because he was aware of his own thinking. This then was the certainty that he could rebuild his knowledge from. I raised the question about subject/object because it gives a particular stance on the world, it's hierarchical and perhaps a bit aloof. I thought it might be part of the materialistic stance and that it would need to be overcome to achieve a being-in-the-world.

Jack wrote:
In Genesis Man is warned by GOD not to eat from the tree of good and bad because he will surely die if he does.The reason I mention this is that it was at that exact moment when Adam ate this fruit that the subject / object dualism was born. It was at that exact moment that Man found his self alienated from his authentic being. It was at that moment that Man chose having over being. Gabriel Marcel, Erich Fromm and many others have said that having and being are the two choices or modes that man has the option of living by The having mode is what most men live under. The problem is that the having orientation blinds man's mind from experiencing being in wonder, appreciation and radical amazement. In other words the possible experience of being as gift dies in man.

I like this. I have thought in the past that this first command of God gave Adam & Eve the possibility of obedience or rebellion and in some sense already layed out good and bad for them prior to eating from the tree. I haven't really thought about having/being much but I like the idea and having does seem to introduce subject/object where being doesn't necessarily. Another idea that interests me here is return and withdrawal from the world (the hierarchy I mentioned). Having implies to me a withdrawal from the world and into possession. Being is more about a return to the world and equality. This could then lead into reflection/engagement and past/present.

Lusia Mousky wrote:
fishing for compliments, aren´t we ?

:oops: Oh dear! That wasn't my intention but perhaps you are identifying one of my bad behaviour patterns. I will question my motivation and see if I can find the underlying thought.

Lusia Mousky wrote:
Have a nice week-end.

Thanks. The Edinburgh Jazz & Blues Festival started last night which will keep me entertained for the next 10 days!

Bullwinkle


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:33 pm 
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bullwinkle wrote:
I thought that the cogito was Descartes observation that he couldn't doubt his own existence because he was aware of his own thinking.


Billwinkle, wouldn't self conscious awareness of all reality that comes by way of the senses and is perceived by the mind prove his existence irregardless of thinking?


bullwinkle wrote:
I have thought in the past that this first command of God gave Adam & Eve the possibility of obedience or rebellion


GOD created Man as a creature who could love and love is by definition impossible if divorced from freewill.


bullwinkle wrote:
I haven't really thought about having/being much but I like the idea and having does seem to introduce subject/object


It surely does that.

bullwinkle wrote:
Having implies to me a withdrawal from the world and into possession.


Having is always egocentric.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:38 pm 
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Jack wrote:
Billwinkle, ...

:lol: Great spelling mistake.

Jack wrote:
Billwinkle, wouldn't self conscious awareness of all reality that comes by way of the senses and is perceived by the mind prove his existence irregardless of thinking?

I could be contradicted by a Descartes expert but I think that Descartes would postulate that the outside world may be the creation of an evil demon to trick him and that he could not be certain of its existence. The only thing he could be certain of was that he was having an experience (the awareness you mention). Descartes called it thinking; I don't know whether the distinction is important. Can anyone help?

Jack - the first part of the Husserl/Heidegger discussion on youtube that you posted is interesting to listen to again as we are discussing Descartes.

Jack wrote:
GOD created Man as a creature who could love and love is by definition impossible if divorced from freewill.

Good point.

Bullwinkle


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:23 am 
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bullwinkle,

I've read 'Meditations' a number of times and don't think that Descartes thought the distinction important. It's true, as you say Jack, that Descartes could have claimed existence on the basis of the experience of being decieved by the evil genuius, and he does - saying something like 'but if he is decieving me then, necessarily, I exist.'

But he could hardly leave it there, if not for the Church's tendency to burn people alive suspect of consorting with demons, then because he has to claim back his world, body and senses for his conclusion to have any wider relevance.

Hope this helps.

mark.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:12 am 
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bullwinkle wrote:
I haven't really thought about having/being much but I like the idea



Bullwinkle,

The following is a 1958 Erich Fromm interview where he speaks to the Having / Being orientation.


The Mike Wallace Interview
Erich Fromm
5/25/58

Erich Fromm, psychoanalyst and social critic, talks to Wallace about society, materialism, relationships, government, religion, and happiness.



http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/vi ... erich.html


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:29 pm 
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Whenever we begin to question our understanding of any particular discipline that we may subscribe to, we can do no better then to go back to the place where it was given it's most authentic birth. For instance if it is our understanding of Christianity that we question, then we can do no better then to return to Jesus, his teachings and his way of life and likewise if it is our understanding of Philosophy that we question, we should return to Socrates, his teachings and his way of life. The following excerpt will clarify my meaning.


WHAT IS ANCIENT PHILOSOPHY?

PIERRE HADOT



SOCRATIC IGNORANCE AND THE CRITIQUE OF SOPHISTIC KNOWLEDGE



In the Apology, Plato reconstructs, in his own way, the speech which Socrates gave before his judges in the trial in which he was condemned to death. Plato tells how Chaerephon, one of Socrates' friends, had asked the Delphic oracle if there was anyone wiser (sophos) than Socrates." The oracle had replied that no one was wiser than Socrates. Socrates wondered what the oracle could pos­sibly have meant, and began a long search among politicians, poets, and artisans-people who, according to the Greek tradition discussed in the previous chapter, possessed wisdom or know­how-in order to find someone wiser than he. He noticed that all these people thought they knew everything, whereas in fact they knew nothing. Socrates then concluded that if in fact he was the wisest person, it was because he did not think he knew that which he did not know. What the oracle meant, therefore, was that the wisest human being was "he who knows that he is worth nothing as far as knowledge is concerned." This is precisely the Platonic definition of the philosopher in the dialogue entitled the Sympo­sium: the philosopher knows nothing, but he is conscious of his ignorance.

Socrates' task-entrusted to him, says the Apology, by the Delphic oracle (in other words, the god Apollo )-was therefore to make other people recognize their lack of knowledge and of wis­dom. In order to accomplish this mission, Socrates himself adopted the attitude of someone who knew nothing-an attitude of naivete. This is the well-known Socratic irony: the feigned igno­rance and candid air with which, for instance, he asked questions in order to find out whether someone was wiser than he. In the words of a character from the Republic" "That's certainly Socrates' old familiar irony! I knew it. I predicted to everyone present, Soc­rates, that you'd refuse to reply, that you'd feign ignorance, and that you'd do anything but reply if someone asked you a question."

This is why Socrates is always the questioner in his discussions.As Aristotle remarked, "He admits that he knows nothing." Ac­cording to Cicero, "Socrates used to denigrate himself, and con­ceded more than was necessary to the interlocutors he wanted to refute. Thus, thinking one thing and saying another, he took plea- sure in that dissimulation which the Greeks call 'irony.':" In fact, however, such an attitude is not a form of artifice or intentional dissimulation. Rather, it is a kind of humor which refuses to take oneself or other people entirely seriously; for everything human, and even everything philosophical, is highly uncertain, and we have no right to be proud of it. Socrates' mission, then, was to make people aware of their lack of knowledge.

This was a revolution in the concept of knowledge. To be sure, Socrates could and willingly did address himself to the common people, who had only conventional knowledge and acted only un­der the influence of prejudices without any basis in reflection, in order to show them that their so-called knowledge had no foun­dation. Above all, however, Socrates addressed himself to those who had been persuaded by their education that they possessed Knowledge. Prior to Socrates, there had been two types of such people. On the one hand, there had been the aristocrats of knowl­edge, or masters of wisdom and truth, such as Parmenides, Empedocles, and Heraclitus, who opposed their theories to the ig­norance of the mob. On the other hand, there had been the demo­crats of knowledge, who claimed to be able to sell their knowledge to all comers; these were, of course, the Sophists. For Socrates, knowledge was not an ensemble of propositions and formulas which could be written, communicated, or sold ready-made. This is apparent at the beginning of the Symposium. Socrates arrives late because he has been outside meditating, standing motionless and "applying his mind to itself." When he enters the room, Agathon, who is the host, asks him to come sit next to him, so that "by contact with you ... I may profit from this windfall of wisdom which you have just stumbled across." "How nice it would be," re­plies Socrates, "if wisdom were the kind of thing that could flow from what is more full into what is more empty"? This means that knowledge is not a prefabricated object, or a finished content which can be directly transmitted by writing or by just any dis­course.


When Socrates claims that he knows only one thing-namely, that he does not know anything-he is repudiating the traditional concept of knowledge. His philosophical method consists not in transmitting knowledge (which would mean responding to his dis­ciples' questions) but in questioning his disciples, for he himself has nothing to say to them or teach them, so far as the theoretical content of knowledge is concerned. Socratic irony consists in pre­tending that one wants to learn something from one's interlocu­tor, in order to bring him to the point of discovering that he knows nothing of the area in which he claims to be wise.

Yet this critique of knowledge, although it seems entirely nega­tive, has a double meaning. On the one hand, it presupposes that knowledge and truth, as we have already seen, cannot be received ready-made, but must be engendered by the individual himself. This is why Socrates says in the Theaetetus that when he talks with other people, he contents himself with the role of midwife. He himself knows nothing and teaches nothing, but is content to ask questions; and it is Socrates' questions and interrogations which help his interlocutors to give birth to "their" truth. Such an image shows that knowledge is found within the soul itself and it is up to the individual to discover it, once he has discovered, thanks to Socrates, that his own knowledge was empty. From the point of view of his own thought, Plato expressed this idea mythically, by saying that all knowledge is the remembrance of a vision which the soul has had in a previous existence. We thus have to learn how to remember.

On the other hand, in Socrates the point of view is wholly different. Socrates' questions do not lead his interlocutor to know something, or to wind up with conclusions which could be for­mulated in the form of propositions on a given subject. Rather, it is because the interlocutor discovers the vanity of his knowledge that he will at the same time discover his truth. In other words, by passing from knowledge to himself, he will begin to place himself in question. In the Socratic dialogue, the real question is less what is being talked about than who is doing the talking. This is made explicit by Nicias, one of Plato's characters:

Don't you know that whoever approaches Socrates closely and be­gins a dialogue with him, even if he begins by talking about some­thing entirely different, nevertheless finds himself forcibly carried around in a circle by this discourse, until he gets to the point of having to give an account of himself-as much with regard to the way he is living now, as to the way he has lived his past existence. When that point is reached, Socrates doesn't let you leave until he has submitted all that to the test of his control, well and thoroughly ... It is a pleasure for me to keep company with him. I see no harm in being reminded that I have acted or am acting in a way that is not good. He who does not run away from this will necessarily be more prudent in the rest of his life.

Thus, Socrates brought his interlocutors to examine and be­come aware of themselves. "Like a gadfly," Socrates harassed his interlocutors with questions which placed them in question, and obliged them to pay attention to themselves and to take care of themselves: "What? Dear friend, you are an Athenian, citizen of a city greater and more famous than any other for its science and its power, and you do not blush at the fact that you give care to your fortune, in order to increase it as much as possible, and to your reputation and your honors; but when it comes to your thought, to your truth, to your soul, which you ought to be improving, you have no care for it, and you don't think of it!"
The point was thus not so much to question the apparent knowledge we think we have, as to question ourselves and the val­ues which guide our own lives. In the last analysis, Socrates' interlocutor, after carrying on a dialogue with him, no longer has any idea of why he acts. He becomes aware of the contradictions in his discourse, and of his own internal contradictions. He doubts him­self; and, like Socrates, he comes to know that he knows nothing. As he does this, however, he assumes a distance with regard to himself. He splits into two parts, one of which henceforth identi­fies itself with Socrates, in the mutual accord which Socrates demands from his interlocutor at each stage of the discussion. The interlocutor thus acquires awareness and begins to question himself.

The real problem is therefore not the problem of knowing this or that, but of being in this or that way: "I have no concern at all for what most people are concerned about: financial affairs, ad­ministration of property, appointments to generalships, oratorical triumphs in public, magistracies, coalitions, political factions. I did not take this path ... but rather the one where I could do the most good to each one of you in particular, by persuading you to be less concerned with what you have than with what you are; so that you may make yourselves as excellent and as rational as possi­ble." Socrates practiced this call to being not only by means of his interrogations and his irony, but above all by means of his way of being, by his way of life, and by his very being.


Last edited by Jack on Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Hi Jack,

Great post!

If you want to then Panos has started a topic on Adam and Eve in Philosophy of Religion and I think that it would benefit from what you have to say on having and being.

Bullwinkle


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:51 pm 
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bullwinkle wrote:

If you want to then Panos has started a topic on Adam and Eve in Philosophy of Religion and I think that it would benefit from what you have to say on having and being.




Bullwinkle, thanks for the heads up but I have already spoken to this in another topic ( The growing problem of materialism confronting our world ) and there was no interest shown in discussing it in any meaningful way.

Jack


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Quote:
( The growing problem of materialism confronting our world ) and there was no interest shown in discussing it in any meaningful way.

Jack, would you kindly bring this back? I should really like to engage in a philosophical discussion on the issue of materialism.
Thank you,
RachelAnn


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