Derived from Nothing

So what's really going on?

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Relinquish
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Derived from Nothing

Post by Relinquish »

The universe derives it's entire 'shape' (which naturally includes every possible aspect of our experience and all that lies beyond) from nothing, simply because there does not exist anything in Reality from which it can derive it. That's precisely why it is the way it is.

There is no such 'thing' as an 'non-derived particular'.

Derivation is always only from Nothing.
Walker
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Walker »

You exist*
- All that you know is derived from you, and you are not nothing.
- Because you are not nothing you can’t even imagine nothing.

If you think you can, you’re fooling yourself.
- Anything you imagine as nothing, is not nothing.

It’s like a cat.

Anything you can imagine about cat
is derived through you
but you are not cat
and because of that
you really can’t imagine cat.
You can only imagine
what you imagine a cat to be.

*https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exist
Relinquish
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Relinquish »

I think we can arrive at a certain intuition of Nothingness through a particular line of reasoning;

Firstly, 'I, myself' exist ONLY as an arbitrarily discerned, 'particular feature' of the universe, and so I don't exist as a 'thing' because a 'thing' would be a 'solely self-inclusive form', but the only 'self-inclusivity' there ever is belongs to Reality Itself.

In truth, the presence of Reality Itself is inherently beginningless, endless and edgeless.

If this were not the case, the 'irreducible edgeless absence' beyond it's edge, the 'irreducible beginningless absence' before it's beginning and the 'irreducible endless absence' after it's end would be just as PRESENT and REAL as the presence of Reality Itself.

Likewise, if the pure presence of Reality Itself were ABSOLUTELY absent, the 'irreducible absolute absence' that would therefore remain would be just as PURE, PRESENT and REAL as the pure presence of Reality Itself.

In this way, the pure presence of Reality Itself EQUALS the absolute absence of Reality Itself, and as such, can have no ACTUAL beginning, ending or edge.

It simply IS.

It is THIS from which the universe, as a whole, derives it's ENTIRE 'shape' of 'dynamic coherent fractal asymmetry'.

The only 'shape' there ever is....
Last edited by Relinquish on Sat May 20, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Walker
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Walker »

Then you agree. Reality is you and all inference that interprets perception derives from you.
Relinquish
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Relinquish »

What would you say I derive from?

:)
ken
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by ken »

Could the Universe just derive Itself from Itself? Always existing? Just continually changing in shape and form? Through an evolutionary process could the Universe just be always creating Itself? Could the Universe just be a constant-change of Itself?
Relinquish
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Relinquish »

ken wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 2:11 pm Could the Universe just derive Itself from Itself? Always existing? Just continually changing in shape and form? Through an evolutionary process could the Universe just be always creating Itself? Could the Universe just be a constant-change of Itself?
That's pretty much how I see it, but I'm trying to suggest an ultimate reason WHY it can only ever derive in THIS way.
Walker
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Walker »

Relinquish wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 1:34 pm What would you say I derive from?

:)
Keep up that backtracking towards first cause and it all comes down to you. The question is, who are you?

The you that infers, derives from a particular state of consciousness accessible in varying degrees by awareness in conjunction with different forms. For instance, a chimp can access the state a little bit, a human a little bit more.

There is no evidence that nothing can exist. There is only evidence that a particular thing can be absent, that a particular thing can be observed, and that not all things can be simultaneously observed or absent.
Arik-Alb
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Arik-Alb »

Keep up that backtracking towards first cause and it all comes down to you. The question is, who are you?
I'm not sure about "I" being the cause of all particular existence.

However, it seems intuitive that "I" have no essential properties or character. My personality could change completely, all my memories be replaced, my life situation made different, and "I" would still be me. In this way, "I" am essentially nothing (i.e. no particular thing), but also must be characterized as just that which is.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Conde Lucanor »

Relinquish wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 12:24 pm The universe derives it's entire 'shape' (which naturally includes every possible aspect of our experience and all that lies beyond) from nothing, simply because there does not exist anything in Reality from which it can derive it. That's precisely why it is the way it is.

There is no such 'thing' as an 'non-derived particular'.

Derivation is always only from Nothing.
To take shape implies transformation (not creation). Transformation can have an extrinsic cause or intrinsic cause, but since the universe must be infinite, there can only be intrinsic causes. And therefore, its shape must be derived from its own processes.
osgart
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by osgart »

so you are saying reality is eternal even if this universe has a beginning. and it's past an infinite regression self enclosed system.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Conde Lucanor »

It is the only way it could be.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Dontaskme »

Relinquish wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 1:34 pm What would you say I derive from?

:)
I possibly derive from an eternal conscientious rational mind.

I don't think the mind is human..it's more omnipotent.. reducing it's power when it appears in limited form in the shape of a human...human being a concept of the omnipotent mind...concepts being mind creations.

The universe is also a conceptual idea of this omnipotent mind... concepts have beginnings and endings, the universe was born and one day will die just like the human body...or any other body shape.

I do not think everything has come from nothing. I think everything is nothing, or nothing is everything. I think the word nothing doesn't mean what we believe or think it to mean....nothing simply is everything without a second...in other words, nothing is oneness.

These are all just concepts of this ineffable ''ISness'' -

ISness' is self evident, no proof necessary. Couldn't prove the mind anyway, cannot disprove it either...it is totally self evident.

The Big Bang suggests a beginning which suggests a cause ..which suggests a causer....which suggests a rational mind...which suggests a causeless cause...simply because it's eternal...it has to be eternal...simply because if Isness is..herenow..then it must have always been is ..herenow.

I mean information has nowhere to go to get lost forever...it ALWAYS IS...

It is impossible to have direct experience of things like mind consciousness or awareness...for these 3 CONCEPTS ARE ALL CLOSELY INTERTWINED AS ONENESS


Therefore, I don't think there is such a state as death, simply because if everything is around forever...and it's self evidently clear that there is a lot of material around that's probably existed for eternity and will always be, whether it be in latent(asleep) state or kinetic(awake) state.. it'll always exist ..

The fact is your never going to die....but you will get some sleep, which is a relief. And you can always wipe the slate clean if you get fed up of living the current slate, and start a brand new slate...one that you may enjoy better.



These are just some of my ideas/opinions...in truth I have no idea about anything except what I make up... :D
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Greta
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Greta »

Relinquish wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 1:10 pm I think we can arrive at a certain intuition of Nothingness through a particular line of reasoning;

Firstly, 'I, myself' exist ONLY as an arbitrarily discerned, 'particular feature' of the universe, and so I don't exist as a 'thing' because a 'thing' would be a 'solely self-inclusive form', but the only 'self-inclusivity' there ever is belongs to Reality Itself.
I have a problem with this. It's very clear that the universe, once very closely unified, is separating. The separations are real, a function of expansion and cooling. Yes, all levels - subatomic, atomic, microscopic, macroscopic, worlds, solar systems, inner-galactic neighbourhoods, galaxies, galactic clusters and superclusters - are connected fractally as you intimate.

Re: your question about what you derive from, unlike Walker I wouldn't reduce it to "who are you?" but "what are you?". What we are essentially is a bundle of tendencies, as is everything living and non-living to some extent.
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Greta
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Re: Derived from Nothing

Post by Greta »

Relinquish wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 1:10 pm I think we can arrive at a certain intuition of Nothingness through a particular line of reasoning;

Firstly, 'I, myself' exist ONLY as an arbitrarily discerned, 'particular feature' of the universe, and so I don't exist as a 'thing' because a 'thing' would be a 'solely self-inclusive form', but the only 'self-inclusivity' there ever is belongs to Reality Itself.
I have a problem with this. It's very clear that the universe, once very closely unified, is separating. The separations are real, a function of expansion and cooling. Yes, all levels - subatomic, atomic, microscopic, macroscopic, worlds, solar systems, inner-galactic neighbourhoods, galaxies, galactic clusters and superclusters - are connected fractally as you intimate. However, the separations are as real as your lack of pain should I hurt myself from 10,000+ kms away.

Re: your question about what you derive from, unlike Walker I wouldn't reduce it to "who are you?" but "what are you?". What we are essentially is a bundle of tendencies, as is everything living and non-living to some extent.
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