Life Itself

So what's really going on?

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Relinquish
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Life Itself

Post by Relinquish »

The following thread starter may, in part, look quite similar to my last one, 'The Universal Self'. I'm sticking with certain principles I shared in that one, but my views on the nature of consciousness have slightly shifted since then. I now feel I resort to far less assumptions, leading generally to a somewhat more coherent overall idea.

Let me know what you think.

In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.

Any given 'particular thing' (for example, a 'tree') is always in a constant state of change, which is to say that 'the tree' is in fact a 'process' rather than a 'thing'. This process can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present. These conditions are 'not the tree', and are naturally comprised of 'other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present. These conditions are 'not those other processes', and are naturally comprised of 'other other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present, and so on, ad infinitum.

Therefore, 'the tree' could not possibly be occurring in exactly the way that it is without the ENTIRETY of 'not the tree' (i.e. the rest of the universe) occuring in exactly the way that it is. In this way, 'the tree' naturally includes within it's own existence the entirety of the rest of the universe. Exactly the same is true of ALL 'particular processes', including 'Me' and 'Not Me' (and 'You' and 'Not You').

As such, the fundamental distinctions between all the different processes do not actually exist, and so, the only process of 'change' that is ACTUALLY occurring is that of the entire universe as one seamless whole.

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.

The only COHERENT ever-changing asymmetry is a 'FRACTAL' ever-changing asymmetry.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one eternally cyclic process.

Evidently, there are (at least for the moment) certain 'organic' parts of this process that are conscious of themselves and of their surroundings. This basic fact indicates that the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').

This, in turn, indicates that the causeless presence of the Eternal Infinity is actually none other than Life Itself.

Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

Thanks for reading. :)
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Greta
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Greta »

Relinquish wrote:... the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').
This conjures up an image of one multi-tentacled thing (like Yevo from Futurama :lol: ).

Seriously, I like it, although with a caveat - it lacks the cohesion of a central nervous system.

Harking back to your observation about asymmetric fractal emergence, as new structures emerge from old ones, there appear to be several stages. Perhaps this is easiest illustrated by evolution, which is slow enough for us to keep up.

First you have an individual entity - it and a relatively disconnected environment, eg, free swimming microbes. Then you have loose aggregations of those entities - communities. These can grow up to a more integrated form - a colony. Consider a coral reef. Colonies can seemingly go in two directions. They can cohere into an ostensible organism (albeit, one without a nervous system like a sea sponge or a pyrosome).

I find sea sponges a fascinating creature because they straddle the divide between tightly knit colonies and organisms. The animals can reform themselves after being put through a blender, unlike animals with specialised structures.

However, colonies can intensify their connections in another, more efficient and sophisticated way, by specialising their functions. Eusocial colonies ate those where its entities take on specialised roles, eg. ants, bees, mole-rats, humans (eg. by contrast, the body sea sponge is relatively uniform, lacking organs or complex a nervous system.

One can speculate about the evolution of multicellular organisms. If we consider each cell to be a captured pair of organisms (the mitochondria and the bacteria that captured it), then each organ of an organism can be seen as specialised colonies of captured microbes performing a particular function in a larger system.
Relinquish wrote:Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.
"Hypnotised by their surroundings". Love it.

Perhaps "hypnotised" could also be thought of as "overwhelmed by it all and thus usually in a state of denial about said complexity of everything?". I cannot function if I see the true depth of those with whom I am forced to compete (and in the end we regularly have to compete in some way, even if just queuing for services). I must reduce the other to an abstraction, an object, an obstacle to be overcome. I cannot think too hard about the lives of animals that I eat either - perhaps they loved another when they were taken away? We don't know their stories so they become objectified. It's easier and you can get things done.

The whole of nature is like this, objectifying others in both competition and cooperation in a constant race for energy and growth /expansion opportunities. If the universe as a whole goes through these integration phases as at least soe of its entities do, then biological life would seem to be only an interim phase of matter as it moves into forms that are less mindlessly competitive and savage than "nature, red in tooth and claw".

Perhaps biology is just the empowerment phase of matter, and from biology may eventually emerge more sophisticated and intelligent entities that are more capable of peaceful and non-exploitative - more harmonious - types of integration?
Dubious
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dubious »

Relinquish wrote: In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.
I would think it more likely that the "whole" however measured is and must be a synthetic fusion of parts which manifests itself as one system. This idea is quite common as mentioned by Carl Sagan when he described the Universe as a great cosmic fugue which can be given a Schopenhauerian connotation as the metaphysical will of God in the spirit of music. This denotes two things...to me. One is of movement and dynamics, the second being its consequent intertwining to weave the webs of creation in its greater and lesser symmetries creating a Universe and all of its functions as a coincidence of forces.
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HexHammer
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Re: Life Itself

Post by HexHammer »

OP is nothing but incoherent nonsense and babble!
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Dontaskme
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dontaskme »

Relinquish wrote:The following thread starter may, in part, look quite similar to my last one, 'The Universal Self'. I'm sticking with certain principles I shared in that one, but my views on the nature of consciousness have slightly shifted since then. I now feel I resort to far less assumptions, leading generally to a somewhat more coherent overall idea.

Let me know what you think.

In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.

Any given 'particular thing' (for example, a 'tree') is always in a constant state of change, which is to say that 'the tree' is in fact a 'process' rather than a 'thing'. This process can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present. These conditions are 'not the tree', and are naturally comprised of 'other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present. These conditions are 'not those other processes', and are naturally comprised of 'other other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the right conditions are present, and so on, ad infinitum.

Therefore, 'the tree' could not possibly be occurring in exactly the way that it is without the ENTIRETY of 'not the tree' (i.e. the rest of the universe) occuring in exactly the way that it is. In this way, 'the tree' naturally includes within it's own existence the entirety of the rest of the universe. Exactly the same is true of ALL 'particular processes', including 'Me' and 'Not Me' (and 'You' and 'Not You').

As such, the fundamental distinctions between all the different processes do not actually exist, and so, the only process of 'change' that is ACTUALLY occurring is that of the entire universe as one seamless whole.

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.

The only COHERENT ever-changing asymmetry is a 'FRACTAL' ever-changing asymmetry.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one eternally cyclic process.

Evidently, there are (at least for the moment) certain 'organic' parts of this process that are conscious of themselves and of their surroundings. This basic fact indicates that the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').

This, in turn, indicates that the causeless presence of the Eternal Infinity is actually none other than Life Itself.

Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

Thanks for reading. :)
Excellent post.

Great awareness and recognition of truth put into words.
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Harbal
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Harbal »

Dontaskme wrote:
Excellent post.

Great awareness and recognition of truth put into words.
No it isn't. It's just an act of imagination, no truer than any number of other imaginary scenarios. Any description of what reality and existence is can be no more than a point of view.
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Greta
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Greta »

Dubious wrote:
Relinquish wrote: In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.
I would think it more likely that the "whole" however measured is and must be a synthetic fusion of parts which manifests itself as one system. This idea is quite common as mentioned by Carl Sagan when he described the Universe as a great cosmic fugue which can be given a Schopenhauerian connotation as the metaphysical will of God in the spirit of music. This denotes two things...to me. One is of movement and dynamics, the second being its consequent intertwining to weave the webs of creation in its greater and lesser symmetries creating a Universe and all of its functions as a coincidence of forces.
I like that - "a great cosmic fugue", movement and dynamics.

Everything was once crammed together, then it spread out, cooled down, and then diversified, and then continued diversifying on a fractal basis. While the universe is still "one thing", speaking as one entity in the whole competing for resources, reality feels like separate things, albeit in varying degrees.

The claim that "there's no separate things or events" may be reasonable on a universal level, but on every other level it is not helpful, basically being a reverse reductionism - the idea that all details can be divined from an extremity. If emergences are inevitable in reality, and if they can be derived upwards from either "fundamental" particles or downwards from the "whole", then humanity has not yet learned how to do it. At this stage emergences cannot readily be predicted (perhaps because chaos is a factor) so it makes sense to consider different forms to be separate and to consider the emergences in their own light rather than dismissed as unreal.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dontaskme »

Harbal wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Excellent post.

Great awareness and recognition of truth put into words.
No it isn't. It's just an act of imagination, no truer than any number of other imaginary scenarios. Any description of what reality and existence is can be no more than a point of view.
Imagine that!
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Harbal
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Harbal »

Dontaskme wrote: Imagine that!
Excellent post, Dontaskme, your best yet. I much prefer this more succinct style to your usual lengthy witterings.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dontaskme »

Relinquish wrote:
As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

It is consciousness itself that becomes bound in self-referential thoughts and in it's desperate and always futile attempt to maintain the resulting illusory entity appears to suffer the pain of isolation.

All the contractions are because of Mind only. The moment we open our mouth aka mind, contradictions are inevitable. No wonder our perceptions vary. That which has no contradictions is Awareness 'The Ultimate Reality' the substratum of all existence.That which has no opposites is the only Reality.
Everything else is just pointless endless witterings.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dontaskme »

Greta wrote:
The claim that "there's no separate things or events" may be reasonable on a universal level, but on every other level it is not helpful, basically being a reverse reductionism - the idea that all details can be divined from an extremity. If emergences are inevitable in reality, and if they can be derived upwards from either "fundamental" particles or downwards from the "whole", then humanity has not yet learned how to do it. At this stage emergences cannot readily be predicted (perhaps because chaos is a factor) so it makes sense to consider different forms to be separate and to consider the emergences in their own light rather than dismissed as unreal.
Nothing has it's own light.

Separation is born out of the Mind. Mind is Imagination of the Dream. Dream creates the mind. Mind and Dream are like Egg and Chicken. So much paradoxical. That is existence. Neither the Dream nor the Mind is True, as they are purely imagined.


There are no Dreamers, there are only Dreams
There are no Experiencers, There is only experience
There are no Writers, There is only Writing
There are no Actors, There are only Actions
There are no Speakers. There is only speaking
There is No Karma, Except as an Idea
Nothing is Personal, as You don't Exist either except as an Idea
To be personal you must be Truly Independent of all that exists, which is Impossible
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Greta
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Greta »

Dontaskme wrote:There are no Dreamers, there are only Dreams
There are no Experiencers, There is only experience
There are no Writers, There is only Writing
There are no Actors, There are only Actions
There are no Speakers. There is only speaking
There is No Karma, Except as an Idea
Nothing is Personal, as You don't Exist either except as an Idea
To be personal you must be Truly Independent of all that exists, which is Impossible
There is no Don't Ask Me
There is only a robot on a loop.
But there is no robot
Only repetition.
But there is no repetition
Just the same point being made over and over ...
Like a robot on a loop.

So for all practical intents and purposes DAM is a robot on a loop, even though s/he is not. No offence meant.

Ditto reality, it might all be one, but for all practical intents and purposes everything is separate.
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Harbal
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Harbal »

Greta wrote: No offence meant.
Nevertheless, I can't help hoping some has been caused.
Relinquish
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Relinquish »

Thanks for all your replies, people. :)

One of the main things I'm trying to convey here is the basic reasons why we don't ever need to be deeply engaged in any argument with Reality. It's an argument that can NEVER be won, simply because there isn't actually anyone there to win, or even to do the arguing at all. I'm trying to show why it SEEMS as though there IS someone there to do it, and why the belief that 'Reality isn't good enough the way it is' arises, and why that belief is simply false.

Truth is, there isn't actually any real imperfection or incompleteness to be found.

What a relief, right?

:)
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Dontaskme
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Re: Life Itself

Post by Dontaskme »

Greta wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:There are no Dreamers, there are only Dreams
There are no Experiencers, There is only experience
There are no Writers, There is only Writing
There are no Actors, There are only Actions
There are no Speakers. There is only speaking
There is No Karma, Except as an Idea
Nothing is Personal, as You don't Exist either except as an Idea
To be personal you must be Truly Independent of all that exists, which is Impossible
There is no Don't Ask Me
There is only a robot on a loop.
But there is no robot
Only repetition.
But there is no repetition
Just the same point being made over and over ...
Like a robot on a loop.

So for all practical intents and purposes DAM is a robot on a loop, even though s/he is not. No offence meant.

Ditto reality, it might all be one, but for all practical intents and purposes everything is separate.
Thanks for the echo.
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