Self-awareness?

So what's really going on?

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HexHammer
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by HexHammer »

bahman wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
bahman wrote: There is no need for neurology. These are all common sense. If you don't them then it means that you didn't think about yourself enough.
Ooooh yes, forgot common sense makes up for complete ignorance, so you can perform brain surgery just by using common sense, you know how to operate strokes, can counsel patiens afterwards, etc etc ..just by using common sense, who needs long and expensive educations when we can just apply common sense to everything!
Brain surgery has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
It has, you say you don't need to read up on neurology to have a serious discussion, because you can just use common sense, that would suggest no one needs to read up on anything, because they can just use common sense.
surreptitious57
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
where the Mind actually is is unknown because of Its immateriality nature there is something labelled with the word Mind
Mind is a function of the brain so its source is not unknown and since the brain is physical the mind cannot be immaterial
surreptitious57
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
ken wrote:
What an adult chooses to or wants to believe ( in ) or not believe ( in ) is a totally free choice they themselves make
This is completely false because one does not have free will all when it comes to the question of what to believe
If that is what you believe then that is fine. No one can argue logically reason against or with a strongly held belief so I will leave
it at that. But I will just ask for clarity about that if I neither believe nor disbelief ( in ) anything besides the ability of Self to do
and achieve anything that It truly wants to do and achieve then is that because I am totally unable to believe ( in ) anything else
or for some other reason
Not every position requires belief or non belief so this dichotomy is a false one. As it is entirely possible to have a neutral disposition
on something. Over time that may change to belief or non belief upon acquisition of new knowledge. The reverse can also happen. A
belief or non belief may revert to a neutral disposition. Or equally from belief to non belief and vice versa. So nothing is set in stone
Although belief or non belief can be absolute positions but not all are. Only some

I should point out that I do not use the words belief or believe less they are synonyms for thought or think because the notion
of accepting or not accepting something without evidence or proof or logic or reason to justify it is one that makes zero sense

I would question the ability of the mind to achieve anything it wants to as this implies it is without limitation which is not true
ken
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by ken »

bahman wrote:
ken wrote:
bahman wrote: What is that sense?
As you have just said and I agreed to that we have an extra sense, therefore if we logically follow on after the five and fifth sense that we are aware of, then that sense must be the sixth sense.

What that actually is and how it actually works I think would take too long for Me to explain it here fully in a forum like this.
So you believe in sixth sense.
No.
bahman wrote:
ken wrote:
bahman wrote: If you believe your brain constructs a mental state, sense of self, then what has that got to do with self-awareness?
There are three things here:

1. You say, "... so we are self aware." If that is so, then what is the answer to who am I (the Self)? If you can not answer that, then 'you' are not self aware. Although that is not to say that I am not self aware. So, please be careful when you use the 'we' word.
This depends whether you are a materialist or dualist.
I am neither.
bahman wrote:There is no self in materialism then you only have a sense of self constructed by your brain. You got a self under dualism but the problem is you cannot have a sense of self without body, for example after you die or before you are born.
If that is what you believe, then so be it.
bahman wrote:
ken wrote: 2. You say, "But this doesn't mean we have self", by using the 'we' word here implies 'it' is an actual self. By actually stating the words 'we', 'I', or 'you', and them has having or not having something, this infers that there is an actual thing, a self. If this is not true, then what do you mean when you use the words 'we', 'I', and 'you'? What do those words refer to?
Please read the previous comment.
Why? You did not answer my two questions here in your previous comment.
bahman wrote:
ken wrote: 3. Here you say, "... so we are self aware", but in reply to hexhammer you say, "You are not really self-aware...", either you are suggesting that hexhammer is not really self aware but bahman and ken are self aware, or, you are not totally sure if 'we', human beings, are self aware or are not self aware. If you want to be understood, then you will need to clear this up for us.
By self-aware I mean that you have a self and you are aware of it. I use sense of self when we are dealing with materialism where you brain construct a sense of self. Obviously your brain cannot construct a self under materialism.
You say, "you have a self", I am again asking who/what is the 'you', who supposedly has a self?

bahman wrote:
ken wrote:
bahman wrote: Dualism is simply an system of belief. We need to discuss it to see whether it allows us to have a sense of self.
Dualism and monism BOTH are necessary to fully explain and understand how two senses of things actually does exist and how there is a self and a Self. The who i think i am self is very much different than the who I really am Self is. This is only fully understood in conjunction with and when understanding how the Mind and the brain work exactly. Parts of both dualism and monism both help in explaining how the Mind and the brain work.
This we have already discuss it.
I do not recall having a discussion about this with you. What I do recall is you making claims.
bahman wrote:
ken wrote:
bahman wrote: What do you mean?
If, as you suggest, each of the five senses is specialized to experience a specific thing but self, then assuming you could arrive at actually discovering and knowing a self or discovering and knowing a sense of self from the information/knowledge that has been grasped by any or all of those five senses just does not make any sense at all. To be able to answer the question who am I, for once and for all, and thus fully understand and be fully self aware, then a new way or new sense, like a sixth sense, is needed.

All of this is very easily achieved, uncovered, and understood with the right know how, but how to explain it to others who a not prepared to or unwilling to learn any of this is another matter.
So you are a dualist?
No.
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bahman
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by bahman »

ken wrote: No.
So how you could experience your self?
ken wrote: Why? You did not answer my two questions here in your previous comment.
So I repeat the answers.

What do you mean when you use the words 'we', 'I', and 'you'? This as I mentioned depends if you are dualist or monist. There is no self in materialism and you only have a sense of self constructed by your brain. You got a self under dualism but the problem is you do not have a sense to experience it directly.

What do those words refer to? In materialism nothing and in dualism your self.
ken wrote: You say, "you have a self", I am again asking who/what is the 'you', who supposedly has a self?
This is already illustrated. In dualism you have a self but you cannot directly experience it (we have no sixth sense, we already discuss this). In materialism we don't have sense but sense of self.

ken wrote: I do not recall having a discussion about this with you. What I do recall is you making claims.
No. Being self-aware is impossible under materialism and dualism. So having both does not resolve any problem.
surreptitious57
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by surreptitious57 »

bahman wrote:
Being self aware is impossible under materialism and dualism
I am self aware and am a materialist so it cannot be impossible
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bahman
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by bahman »

surreptitious57 wrote:
bahman wrote: Being self aware is impossible under materialism and dualism
I am self aware and am a materialist so it cannot be impossible
You don't have any self as a materialist so what you experience is only a sense of self constructed with your brain. So you cannot be self-aware unless you argue that your brain construct a self.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote:sense of self constructed with your brain . . . brain construct(s) a self.
Yeah, that's the same thing. Again, the mistake is to take "self" in this connotation to refer to something other than the "sense of self" that our brains instantiate.
ken
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by ken »

bahman wrote:
ken wrote: No.
So how you could experience your self?
ken wrote: Why? You did not answer my two questions here in your previous comment.
So I repeat the answers.

What do you mean when you use the words 'we', 'I', and 'you'? This as I mentioned depends if you are dualist or monist. There is no self in materialism and you only have a sense of self constructed by your brain. You got a self under dualism but the problem is you do not have a sense to experience it directly.

What do those words refer to? In materialism nothing and in dualism your self.
ken wrote: You say, "you have a self", I am again asking who/what is the 'you', who supposedly has a self?
This is already illustrated. In dualism you have a self but you cannot directly experience it (we have no sixth sense, we already discuss this). In materialism we don't have sense but sense of self.

ken wrote: I do not recall having a discussion about this with you. What I do recall is you making claims.
No. Being self-aware is impossible under materialism and dualism. So having both does not resolve any problem.
Ah okay now I know what the "truth" is. Thank you for enlightening Me. But I wish you just started this thread with "Being self-aware is impossible". If you did, then I would not have wasted any time replying. If you did and I did not notice it, then that is my fault. If you did not, then it is like you are trolling for something. That 'something' I will leave up to reader's imagination.
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attofishpi
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by attofishpi »

bahman wrote:This is simple: We know that we don't have any sense that we could experience self directly. We however directly experience our actions and deduce that there is a being with self who performs the actions.
I think therefore i am.

And we do have many 'senses' that we can experience self directly - try pinching yourself somewhere. Sure you created the action (self) and you experienced the affect (self).
How could we be sure that there is a self?
Try the above.
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bahman
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by bahman »

attofishpi wrote:
bahman wrote: This is simple: We know that we don't have any sense that we could experience self directly. We however directly experience our actions and deduce that there is a being with self who performs the actions.
I think therefore i am.

And we do have many 'senses' that we can experience self directly - try pinching yourself somewhere. Sure you created the action (self) and you experienced the affect (self).
You didn't need to pinch your self to realize that you have a self if you are able to experience your self directly.
OuterLimits
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by OuterLimits »

bahman wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
bahman wrote: Being self aware is impossible under materialism and dualism
I am self aware and am a materialist so it cannot be impossible
You don't have any self as a materialist so what you experience is only a sense of self constructed with your brain. So you cannot be self-aware unless you argue that your brain construct a self.
The sentence begins with the word "you" - what "you" do you refer to? Often people will say they mean the brain itself. Then the sense of self is constructed by the brain for itself.
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bahman
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by bahman »

OuterLimits wrote:
bahman wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote: I am self aware and am a materialist so it cannot be impossible
You don't have any self as a materialist so what you experience is only a sense of self constructed with your brain. So you cannot be self-aware unless you argue that your brain construct a self.
The sentence begins with the word "you" - what "you" do you refer to? Often people will say they mean the brain itself. Then the sense of self is constructed by the brain for itself.
I think "you" is the sense of self that people refer too.
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attofishpi
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by attofishpi »

bahman wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
bahman wrote: This is simple: We know that we don't have any sense that we could experience self directly. We however directly experience our actions and deduce that there is a being with self who performs the actions.
I think therefore i am.

And we do have many 'senses' that we can experience self directly - try pinching yourself somewhere. Sure you created the action (self) and you experienced the affect (self).
You didn't need to pinch your self to realize that you have a self if you are able to experience your self directly.
What YOU need to comprehend therefore, is an entity - a human brain for example that has the unfortunate circumstance of having no ability to sense anything - and never has had the 'five' senses that we are gifted with.
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attofishpi
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Re: Self-awareness?

Post by attofishpi »

attofishpi wrote:
bahman wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
I think therefore i am.

And we do have many 'senses' that we can experience self directly - try pinching yourself somewhere. Sure you created the action (self) and you experienced the affect (self).
You didn't need to pinch your self to realize that you have a self if you are able to experience your self directly.
What YOU need to comprehend therefore, is an entity - a human brain for example that has the unfortunate circumstance of having no ability to sense anything - and never has had the 'five' senses that we are gifted with.
Oo did i kill this thread with too much of an intelligent proposition?
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