Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
But consciousness is NOT a mystery at all to Me, nor are there also any mysteries left.
Well, once again the Nobel Prize is yours for the taking.
Well, once again, I do not want nor need a nobel prize. You may want one, but I certainly do not. All i want is to remain anonymous.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
To Me, all the pieces of the puzzle have already converged together forming a big picture of Life. I observe sciences could not converge together because there is only (one) science. I also observe religions could not converge together because there is only (one) religion. Human beings have made different "sciences" and "religions". The reason they have is obvious and found with the discovery of how the Mind and the brain can work together and oppositely. When these things are understood what is also observed is how science and religion are so far more alike than they are different, with both helping to verify the rightness and wrongness in each other.
Seeing as you know the answer to everything there is not much point is me having this conservation with you. I cannot enlighten you in any way because you know everything.
But your responses and questions, and lack of questions, is helping Me tremendously in learning how to express better.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
So every brain from the very first thought it produces till the very last thought it produces and during every thought in between is a conscious brain, to you?
Self-consciousness is not a prerequisite for being conscious. One can be conscious without necessarily being self-conscious.
There is nothing in my quote here saying anything about self-consciousness.
I just asked you a question here in this quote, which by the way you never answered.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
Well it certainly does not make perfect sense to Me. But then again I, more times than not, observe and see things far differently than human beings actually do, at this point in time.
in that case you must be a superior being.
Or I may be just a more simpler being.
Ginkgo wrote:If the brain can produces consciousness then it must be conscious.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
Not necessarily so. This is where we have completely opposing views. I think experiences enter the body, through the five sense, as information into the brain. Some past experiences are held as memories, which combine with present experiences, which are producing new thoughts, of which some are conscious thoughts, while others are not. These present thoughts are consciousness. To Me the brain, itself, is not conscious, nor consciousness. This view forms part of a perfectly clear picture, of which there is no confusion nor mystery.
"These present thoughts are consciousness. To me the brain brain, itself, is not conscious, nor consciousness."
As I said before, it stands to reason that if present thoughts are consciousness then the brain MUST be conscious to have these present thoughts. For some reason you think we need to be self-conscious to be conscious. This is not the case.
Again, you have brought up "self-conscious" here again. There is nothing in my quote alluding to self-consciousness. I may talk about self-consciousness later on in my post but as of now it would be better for us, and easier for others to read, if you just reply to the actual quote of mine that you have extracted and are responding to.
To Me, a brain is not conscious but there can be conscious thoughts.
To you, a brain MUST be conscious if there are conscious thoughts. WHY
MUST this be the case?
To Me, a brain is never conscious it just does its job, which is to receive information, and then produce thoughts.
To you, a brain is conscious with its first thought, of which what that first thought is, or could be, and roughly when does it actually take place would need to be looked at discussed first, before you can even start to explain to Me how the brain can actually become conscious.
Why do you say a brain MUST be conscious, when thoughts are being produced? Do you believe thoughts and the brain are one and the same thing? Or, is there another reason?
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
Obviously. And, the brain and the heart does not produce what the liver does, and the brain and the liver does not produce what the heart does. No two different organs produces the exact same thing, but to Me all organs are like the other ones are. They are not conscious things. The brain may produce conscious thoughts and thinking but to Me that still does not mean it is conscious, itself.
Again, for some reason you think that in order to be conscious one must be self-conscious.
What do you mean here? Again, where have I alluded to
self-conscious in this quote, or any of the above quotes?
You really are seeing things in my writings, which really are not there, (yet).
Maybe because you read my whole post and then you have come back to extracting and replying to these quotes you keep referring to my use of 'self-consciousness', but doing this is really not helping your case here.
You have made an assumption, before asking Me a clarifying question. Two things here; 1. If you just asked Me the clarifying question first, then you would not have made the wrong assumption that you have here. 2. If you asked Me the clarifying question first, then I would have given you the answer and then you would know already what that "some reason" is WHY I think, what I actually do think.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
So are you saying that whenever a child has its first thought that is when the child becomes conscious, and will remain conscious until the day the brain stops produces anymore thoughts?
Yes, except for those times the person is asleep or unconscious.
Okay, that is fair enough. You can have any view you like.
Hopefully you have started explaining about what the first thought could be a child has, and roughly when they have that thought, then we can discuss that and how that relates to how the brain of a child is conscious and how it can become conscious, to you. If you want to have this view, then you have to look deeper into this to see if it is actually true or not. To be able to look at this in much more depth, then you need to start thinking more about what you are saying and what I am asking you. Then, from your answers we can then discuss what produces the brain to actually become conscious, as you believe it does, because if the brain is conscious because it creates conscious thoughts, then HOW what causes the brain to have have conscious thoughts could also be conscious, and so on. Or, if that does not seem viable, then we can discuss if the brain actually becomes conscious or not.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
If so, then that does not fit in with data, observations and experiments that confirms what I observe NOW, which is, that there may be a thought of, '1+1=2', within a human head, that thought is conscious, or aware, that 1+1=2, but that in no way makes one to be conscious of self. For example if I asked you, "Who is the one that you say needs to be conscious to do mathematics?" what is your answer?
I didn't say conscious of self.
I know you did not.
I never said you did.
Ginkgo wrote:I was explaining the conditions required for consciousness.
No you were not. You were explaining that if there is a conscious thought like 1+1=2, then there is a conscious thought, which means then there MUST be a conscious brain. That is about all you have said and explained.
I was explaining that a thought may be conscious that if 1+1 is added together, then there is 2. I was just saying that may be a conscious thought of that fact, but that thought is just conscious, or aware, of that fact only, and nothing else. I was alluding to the fact that consciousness, itself, could have a multitude of varying different levels. Consciousness of the highest level could refer to being fully conscious, or in other words aware of its own (one) self.
Ginkgo wrote:Why are you asking me for an answer when you already know everything about consciousness?
Because I want you to see that even if you are correct, in that the brain is conscious from the very first thought, then that brain is not really that much conscious. If the brain, or a thought, is not conscious at all of its own self, then really HOW conscious is it?
I would say if a conscious thought (or a conscious brain in your view) is conscious of some thing, then that thought has consciousness, of that thing, but that thought is not consciousness, itself. Being conscious of some things is not the same as being consciousness of all things.
To Me, being able to "stand back" and be able to be conscious of all things, including thoughts, is consciousness.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
If a person can not answer the question, "Who am 'I'?" then really how conscious are they?
Very conscious.
Does one become "very conscious" with the very first thought?
Ginkgo wrote: One does not need to be self-conscious in order to be conscious.
That is right. But can one become more conscious over time, or are all human beings very conscious from their very first thought, and thus can not become more conscious with age?
Is consciousness reached at and with the very first thought, and can not be increased nor improved upon?
Ginkgo wrote: Again,why are you asking me if you already know the answer?
So that if you provide open and honest answers, and if you want to learn more, then you will see things more clearly, by yourself.
You certainly do not need Me to give you any answers, do you? In fact, I KNOW all the answers are within you. I am just learning how to express better how to get those answers out of you.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
When does an individual person supposedly become conscious, and how conscious are they really, and when did human beings, themselves, on a whole, supposedly become conscious, and how conscious are they really?
No one know the answer to this, except of course yourself.
How do you know no one knows the answer to this?
If I do know the answer, or not, will eventually come to light. But it also does not matter if I do know the answer or not. What matters is everyone coming to an answer by themselves and seeing if everyone comes to and has the answer. I am just here learning how to express better a way that teaches human beings how they, themselves, can find these answers, which are already within them, by, and for, themselves. If they all come to the same answer, by themselves, then I will have achieved what I have come here for. You will be known as one of the ones that has helped Me to achieve what I am here for. I am sure you will then get that nobel peace prize that you talk about, but so will everyone else who has helped Me achieve what it is that I am achieving HERE and NOW.
Ginkgo wrote:Ken wrote:
Also, if a child is not conscious until their very first thought, then does that really fit in with what conscious or consciousness is? And, how exactly does that first thought make them a conscious being? What are they really conscious of exactly?
I can answer that question but you are probably no interested.
If I was inclined to assume, then I could say with your response you are just trying to avoid my three question here. But I do not like to assume anything.
I think you will find I am far more interested than you realize.
Every question I ask, and there is many of them here in this forum, I am of the utmost interest in the responses I get.
I ask many direct simple clarifying questions here hoping for completely open and honest replies and answers. But sadly I get very few of them. The more human beings are open and honest with Me, then the more I can learn and the quicker I learn, and then the quicker I can achieve what I have set out to achieve.