Dualism?

So what's really going on?

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Harbal
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Harbal »

osgart wrote:What business does a man have selling ladies apparrell
I suppose some men figure it's the only way to talk to a woman about her breasts in a non medical way without getting punched in the face. That's just a guess.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

ladies are keenly aware of such deceptive motives
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Harbal
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Harbal »

osgart wrote:ladies are keenly aware of such deceptive motives
And some men are equally as keen to convince themselves they are not aware of it.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote:sounds like Brahman is more of a force than a being.

is Brahman a being?

do Hindus have ultimatums on belief?

it sounds like a non conformist religion.
“‘I am Brahman’ is only a thought. Who says it? Brahman itself does not say so. What need is there for it to say it? Nor can the real ‘I’ say so. For ‘I’ always abides as Brahman. To be saying it is only a thought. Whose thought is it? All thoughts are from the unreal ‘I’, that is the ‘I’-thought. Remain without thinking. So long as there is thought there will be fear.”

- Sri Ramana Maharshi
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osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

thought gives rise to personality. the"i" is the freedom of the individual. heart ,mind and will are the "i".
you don't want to lose the self so much as gain the other. to be among those who love compassion and give deserve freely. lifes intended nature.
their is a deserve it applies to all.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

The Self
“This is the term that he (Sri Ramana Maharshi) used the most frequently. He defined it by saying that the real Self or real ‘I’ is, contrary to perceptible experience, not an experience of individuality but a non-personal, all-inclusive awareness. It is not to be confused with the individual self which he said was essentially non-existent, being a fabrication of the mind which obscures the true experience of the real Self. He maintained that the real Self is always present and always experienced but he emphasized that one is only consciously aware of it as it really is when the self-limiting tendencies of the mind have ceased. Permanent and continuous Self-awareness is known as Self-realization.”

- David Godman
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osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

yes the overarching purpose of existence isn't utilitarian, it isn't senselessness , it's the joy of helping others. in giving deserve we receive quality of life. that's the purpose of a soul vs just some random crud ya gotta deal with.

if we seek the benefit of deserving others it's reasonable that we should receive back what we deserve.

deserve is the key.

if we give to those that don't deserve we feel drained and get spent.

takers are a dime a dozen . And drain society

a good hearted person deserves. an rotten person only causes oppression or worse.

deservers appreciates the giver and gives back.

trouble is people don't recognize deserve.

when a person is only about gainfulness the society suffers it

of course their are levels of deserve.

you might say what does a homeless person deserve or a cripple. they deserve security and education based on good intention.

reality is contrary to this purpose of good intention and so we suffer it's evils

to understand just deserve one is well on their way to prosperity.

ya live within your means and give deserve it's due and that takes getting to know people.

deserve is the foundation of opportunity.


So why does life on earth drain so many? it's the false pride of takers knowing you are desperate of need.

So one must be spiritually discerning for many make a fair show of it.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

"That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words?

"Sages say that the state in which the thought ‘I’ [the ego] does not rise even in the least, alone is Self [ swarupa] which is silence [mouna.] That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva [individual soul]. Self alone is this ancient world.

"All other knowledges are only petty and trivial knowledges; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge."

- Sri Ramana Maharshi
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osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

ngThe self is very real. you can't do without it. The heart mind and will is best sensed alone. The self can't be done away with. no matter where you go there you are.

A greater reality than self must exist but the self is part of it.

now why does the self exist at all in such an indifferent universe of brute forces. there must be a driving force of intelligence that struggles to exist yet the universe is an eternal obstacle to it.

when a guy such as Sam Harris says that self is an illusion and science can prove it, well thats just rubbish.

in the grind of everyday life we can often feel like mere machine but that's not at all actuality.

subjectively the self is self evident. It's just that we are conditioned elsewhere to live. nature itself conditions you to be a survival machine.

time is scarce to explore the self.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote:when a guy such as Sam Harris says that self is an illusion and science can prove it, well thats just rubbish.
In order to exist, "self" requires an object of attention.

"Self" does not require an object of attention.

*

“According to Sri Ramana, every conscious activity of the mind or body revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an ‘I’ who is doing something. The common factor in ‘I think’, ‘I remember’, ‘I am acting’ is the ‘I’ who assumes that it is responsible for all these activities. Sri Ramana called this common factor the ‘I’-thought (aham-vritti). Literally aham-vritti means ‘mental mondification of ‘I’. The Self or real ‘I’ never imagines that is is doing or thinking anything; the ‘I’ that imagines all this is a mental fiction and so it is called a mental modification of the Self. Since this is a rather cumbersome translation of aham-vritti it is usually translated as ‘I’-thought.

“Sri Ramana upheld the view that the notion of individuality is only the ‘I’-thought manifesting itself in different ways. Instead of regarding the different activities of the mind (such as ego, intellect and memory) as separate functions he preferred to view them all as different forms of the ‘I’-thought.”

‘Since he upheld the notion that the Self is the only existing reality he regarded the ‘I’-thought as a mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. He explained its appearance by saying that it can only appear to exist by identifying with an object. When thoughts arise the ‘I’-thought claims ownership of them – ‘I think’, ‘I believe’, ‘I want”, ‘I am acting’ – but there is no separate ‘I’-thought that exists independently of the objects that it is identifying with. It only appears to exist as a real continuous entity because of the incessant flow of identifications which are continually taking place.”

- David Godman
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osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

the I, a mere reference point that is convenient but relatively unprovable. So I can live my life as a total other concept ,and we are none of these things.

The I for you is a limiting concept. Perhaps we are all part of a collective consciousness.

we live so much of our lives in our minds that we fail to recognize the part of self souls that is the seat of cares hates loves and ambivalences.

I don't desire to be somebody's program .
subjectivity tells me the I of self can't be ignored.

their are natures to human experiences that are good or bad. we can let go of egocentrism and live more humbly and still be an I that is free from egocentric desire.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

Subjectivity tells you
The earth is flat
And you do ignore that

“Sri Ramana tended to play down the importance of most spiritual experiences and if they were reported to him he would usually stress that it was more important to be aware of the experience than to indulge in or analyse the experience. He would sometimes digress into explanations about the causes of the experiences and he occasionally evaluated them as being either beneficial or detrimental to Self-awareness, but on the whole he tended to discourage interest in them.”

- David Godman
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Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote: I don't desire to be somebody's program .
Ego gets conditioned from childhood and then thinks that’s the independent, autonomous self.
The I who desires this, and that.

One day ego realizes that it was conditioned into being.

Then it will say, I’m glad that happened.
Or, it may not.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

I could accept or reject the conditioning albeit often hard to go against the grain.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

Walker wrote:Subjectivity tells you
The earth is flat
And you do ignore that

“Sri Ramana tended to play down the importance of most spiritual experiences and if they were reported to him he would usually stress that it was more important to be aware of the experience than to indulge in or analyse the experience. He would sometimes digress into explanations about the causes of the experiences and he occasionally evaluated them as being either beneficial or detrimental to Self-awareness, but on the whole he tended to discourage interest in them.”

- David Godman
ibid
acting within self relevance avoids wasteful indulgence.

spiritual experience itself is not wasteful provided you stick to self relevance.
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