Dualism?

So what's really going on?

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Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote:acting within self relevance avoids wasteful indulgence.

spiritual experience itself is not wasteful provided you stick to self relevance.
Subjective experience:

I look to the left.
I look to the right.
I look up.
I look down.
I look all around.

It looks flat to me.

Inference tells me
If it looks round to you
You're very large indeed from your perspective.
Through the senses, you would have to be a very large giant to perceive the roundness of the earth beneath your feet.
You are large through mind.
You have been educated that the earth is not flat.

You are not ignorant of the earth.

But, you know this of the earth through inference, not subjective experience.

That's reality, supported and communicated by reasoning, and not a subjective opinion.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

on matters of the physical reality it is best to be objective. but that is not all there is . subjectivity is a reality and there are very real things about it.
there must be truth of subjective reality as well that go far beyond mere opinion.

consciousness has three components heart,mind and will. shall we govern one and not the other two conponents.

also because I have seen the round earth with my eyes i know that it is round. so subjectivity isn't always opinion.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote:on matters of the physical reality it is best to be objective. but that is not all there is . subjectivity is a reality and there are very real things about it.
there must be truth of subjective reality as well that go far beyond mere opinion.

consciousness has three components heart,mind and will. shall we govern one and not the other two conponents.

also because I have seen the round earth with my eyes i know that it is round. so subjectivity isn't always opinion.
You know it is round as an inference based on memory of an event in which you perceived the earth as round.

However, what you perceived was a crescent, unless you have been out there about as far as the moon. Maybe closer.

Subjective experience does not tell you that the earth is round from that. The crescent could be flat on the other side, according to purely subjective experience.

If you've been far enough out there to perceive a circular shape, you still inferred that it was round, based on memory of your education. However subjectively, you're witnessing one side of a circle that you remember was crescent shaped, from the memory of when you were shot into orbit.

This is not opinion. This is what happens.

8)
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

so the understanding pieces it together and than you know. or at least you hope you didn't get a bad understanding.

if I take the sum total of my subjective experiences coupled with an accurate understanding than I know.

I can inform my subjective experience to the point that by adding up the different frames of experience than I know the object well.

It's like the table in philosophy class. I am only seeing one perspective of the table and not the whole table. Yet I can imagine what those other perspectives of the table are because I have enough of the whole picture to get it's accurate dimensions as a whole.

to me the subjective experience isn't lying, it's just very limited in it's scope. like doing a puzzle you gain the whole by adding up the sum of tha parts of your experience and than you know. :o
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

Absolute truth is permanent.
The earth is not permanent.

What can we really know, for sure?

“All I can truly say is:
‘I am,’ all else is inference.
But the inference has become a habit.”
- I Am That, Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


This is true for all humans.
It is not opinion.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

I agree with that there is absolute truth.

my will to understand guides me for I seek with honest intent.

I look above me and above everyone for my answers. I look outside of myself and every living creature. I seek the ultimate standard.

I let questions flow from my mind and answers come with good intention. otherwise none.

when I stop my mind I let my heart travel alone.

life is my goal. The joy of life. It's peace , it's nature, it's essence. It's honesty.

when I examine my heart I find it's will. I take my will and give it to what's above in nature to all.

humans are seekers. The divine is above us all. it is superior in nature.

The divine is the great helper , the great fixer of the soul. a healer and a buckler. it asks only that I am willing to reach beyond myself into a purer way called life.

life is a giver of life to those whom regard life and it's purpose to give. to give others as they deserve in their hearts, and to give non violently for the purpose of creating joy in all and for all.

if one regards not life than one cannot have of it. for life seeks the others welfare for the sake of the other whom regards the giver.

life conquers every heart eventually. some through hell, some though willing.

whether by fire or by counsel it will be accomplished.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

“What you need will come to you,
if you do not ask for what you do not need.”


- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

osgart wrote:I agree with that there is absolute truth.

my will to understand guides me for I seek with honest intent.

I look above me and above everyone for my answers. I look outside of myself and every living creature. I seek the ultimate standard.

I let questions flow from my mind and answers come with good intention. otherwise none.

when I stop my mind I let my heart travel alone.

life is my goal. The joy of life. It's peace , it's nature, it's essence. It's honesty.

when I examine my heart I find it's will. I take my will and give it to what's above in nature to all.

humans are seekers. The divine is above us all. it is superior in nature.

The divine is the great helper , the great fixer of the soul. a healer and a buckler. it asks only that I am willing to reach beyond myself into a purer way called life.

life is a giver of life to those whom regard life and it's purpose to give. to give others as they deserve in their hearts, and to give non violently for the purpose of creating joy in all and for all.

if one regards not life than one cannot have of it. for life seeks the others welfare for the sake of the other whom regards the giver.

life conquers every heart eventually. some through hell, some though willing.

whether by fire or by counsel it will be accomplished.
Seeking is a dualistic activity.
Paradoxically, seeking leads to no seeking.

No seeking is non-dual.

The seeking that leads to non-dual no-seeking is the distillation of all seeking into one seeking. Such seeking does not begin as an all-consuming enquiry, for who would choose obsession? However, it does turn into that and persists until the seeking ends, for good.

In the process of all phenomena filtering through the single-purposed desire comes discovery of the real-world, pragmatic, dualistic insights that end the effort.

"So, it is best not to begin. However, if you do begin, it is best to finish."
- Trungpa Rinpoche
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Harbal
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote:Seeking is a dualistic activity.
Especially if you're looking for something like a pair of socks.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote:
Walker wrote:Seeking is a dualistic activity.
Especially if you're looking for something like a pair of socks.
May as well.

They sell socks in pairs but socks are not left and right.
Two socks in a pack are both unisocks.
Two uni’s make a pair but even they get mixed up sometimes.
Sometimes the left goes on the right,
Sometimes the right goes on the left.
The shapes get straightened out in the wash.
The moral is, buy all the same socks and dump them in the drawer.
Boring, but less distinctifying and fewer trivial sortings to bother with.
Not to mention fewer rollings and foldings the way someone taught you.
One can find a daily ration of that elsewhere.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

Question: What is sin?

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj: All that binds you.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

is sin a sugar coated word for evil.

I find sin quite mortifying.

I don't think it's evil lite .

I think it's actually that God is out to rescue and change evil people which I don't get at all.
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

What's the connection of that to dualism?

*

“Life itself is desireless. But the false self wants to continue – pleasantly. Therefore it is always engaged in ensuring one’s continuity. Life is unafraid and free. As long as you have the idea of influencing events, liberation is not for you: The very notion of doership, of being a cause, is bondage.”
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seen in this light, evil actions are nothing more than a confluence of inevitable conditions perceived in association with the continuity of dualistic identity, and a delusional sense of separateness.

Through attachment to a false identity, evil is either done to you or done by you.
- Seen in this light, evil is either done unto others or done by others to others, and to you.

Because of the sin of being bound to a false identity, when benign is a blessing then all perceived phenomena in the universe becomes either a blessing or a curse.
- Ego and its minions of foibles appropriates the mantle of awareness, and when ego gets threatened it will burn down the world in defense, which tragically may include attempts to end awareness. Or it may even include, singing in the rain during a lovely parade distraction.

Example: Death by natural disaster is erroneously called an evil act of God, because the natural disaster had to happen as caused by the confluence of all contributing conditions, which sometimes includes the human judgment of riding out a hurricane, or just riding it out if one must. It may also be a consequence of living within a society corrupted away from the intent of society as a principle.
- Corrupted by human attachments, i.e. bindings, i.e. sins.
osgart
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Re: Dualism?

Post by osgart »

so what constitutes true identity?

I prefer my simple perspective that I am a soul and that I am what I am. heart, mind and will. why on earth would I give up my identity?

do people really change?

everyone is causal to something!, how can that be avoided?

do we be and let be and stop trying to sell something?

how can we survive living meagherly?
Walker
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Re: Dualism?

Post by Walker »

Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Do_ ... e_Going%3F

Paul Gauguin said that within the painting, he was depicting how people realize the futility of words when the end of life is close.

Realizing the futility of words can also happen earlier in life, before the end of this body in which you now live, which will change so that you will no longer be identified as young.

The body is slower to catch-up to the instantaneous realization of the futility of words.
- This realization makes speech impossible.
- Accompanying this realization are the stages of denial, during which the realization of ultimate futility is opposed by ego.
- Acceptance is the last stage of the body acclimating to the realization, of the futility of words.
- One finally accepts the futility of words, and then one is silenced.
- Sometimes for years.

Just as suddenly, one begins to speak again.
- The futility has now been fully realized, and integrated into being.

This is the way of things and from this comes the analysis.
- This is how one literally dies to duality, before life leaves the body.
- After death of duality, life goes on.

Caring and not caring is quite the paradox.
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